Why I Prefer the Pinpoint Stance

[stotty]

Body type can make an impact on the location of the center of gravity. Look at how different the serve technique is with Serena and Venus....both taught by the same coaches but arrived at very different styles. The broader shoulders of Venus relative to narrower hips gives her that V shape build similar to most men. Higher C of G so she was able to develop a more male styled serve. Serena was more pear shaped with a lower C of G which can create limitations of style options. Both great servers yet very different. Serena was more leg driven where Venus was less and had more hip and shoulder separation coil.
I consider this when developing players style. The common element was weight shifting forward onto front foot for launch upward.I will optimize a platform stance if it's already well engrained in habit but for developing young players, the majority I will encourage pursuing pinpoint. The back foot can shift into a few different positions and not negatively affect the motion as long as the weight is predominantly or completely on front foot. Many players without well developed pitching mechanics/upper body kinetic chain will often shift to the back foot in the pinpoint because their front side of upper body mechanics are underdeveloped.

Thanks for the considered reply. I hadn't really considered physique as a determining factor. In my experience, one of the determining factors on whether a player will emerge as a pinpoint server or a platform server is their ball toss. If a kids ball toss starts to err more forwards, then pinpoint seems to naturally (not always) start to develop as a result. A kid who tosses the ball more directly above stands a better chance of emerging as a platform server. Another determining factor is where kids start copying their favourite player.

[patdougherty]

Body type can make an impact on the location of the center of gravity. Look at how different the serve technique is with Serena and Venus....both taught by the same coaches but arrived at very different styles. The broader shoulders of Venus relative to narrower hips gives her that V shape build similar to most men. Higher C of G so she was able to develop a more male styled serve. Serena was more pear shaped with a lower C of G which can create limitations of style options. Both great servers yet very different. Serena was more leg driven where Venus was less and had more hip and shoulder separation coil.
I consider this when developing players style. The common element was weight shifting forward onto front foot for launch upward.I will optimize a platform stance if it's already well engrained in habit but for developing young players, the majority I will encourage pursuing pinpoint. The back foot can shift into a few different positions and not negatively affect the motion as long as the weight is predominantly or completely on front foot. Many players without well developed pitching mechanics/upper body kinetic chain will often shift to the back foot in the pinpoint because their front side of upper body mechanics are underdeveloped.

[stotty]

A great article which goes a little against the grain of conventional methods these days...as more and more coaches seem to err towards teaching platform, at least in my neck of the woods.

I am happy to teach pinpoint or platform but my most common concern when teaching young kids the pinpoint stance is where that rear foot ends up sliding up to. It can end up sliding all over the place if you don't watch it. The great thing about platform is that, to me, there is less to go wrong with it from a coaching perspective. It's simple and easy to teach.

I am curious if Pat teaches pinpoint exclusively or whether he lets players go with the flow of what feels right to them.

I can see the benefits pinpoint holds over platform in terms of the ability to drive up, and done well, like with Sinner, it can make for a great serve.

I would put it like that:

Used Symbols:
\ Front hip down
/ Front hip up

On a good platform Serve you start with
1: Weight on front foot, hip tilt \
2: Weight on back foot, hip tilt \
3: Weight on back foot, hip tilt /
4: Weight on front foot, hip tilt / and launch

On Pats serve technique phase 3 is lesser pronounced and you need the bringing in of the foot for the weight transfer and hip tilt reversal and on the platform serve you need a circular windup for this. Im thinking Mark Kovacs is advocating a more pronounced phase 3. I dont think anybodys wants to drive upward and forward with the back leg. So nobody here is really wrong.
I hope i could clear this up. I just say for the platform stance this 4 phases are getting me started now. With a static weight on both feet im stuck.

Kind regards
Gerd

[patdougherty]

Our soon to be #1 in the world Sinner recently switched from Platform to Pinpoint stance and his serve has improved immensely.

[doctorhl]

I think in Pats preferred serve technique, it is more about the front hip flexor rather than the front knee as far a load bearing goes.

Yes, that makes sense.

[stroke]

I think in Pats preferred serve technique, it is more about the front hip flexor rather than the front knee as far a load bearing goes.

[doctorhl]

Fantastic analysis! My only question is the tendency of the front knee to be overworked if it takes too much of the load. I suppose good mechanics takes care of that tendency.

[patdougherty]

I don't want to say anything disparaging about anyone in the industry but understand having a doctorate in one specific topic doesn't equate necessarily to expertise in everything. All I can say is, I have introduced and coined the terminology of "athletic foundation" into the industry in my "Killer Forehand" production work. And in that same video, also introduced the concept of my patented A.P. Belt system, In the R & D phase of my invention,I did extensive research on the fundamentals of movement which attracted David Bailey to studying my work many years ago as he shadowed me on the courts. Having been in person at Kovacs presentations on movement, several things I would disagree with in his understanding of movement techniques.

On Serve, there is little value to launching from the back foot side in the pinpoint and can conflicts from both sides trying to contribute to the upward launch often creates sync problems on platform. I can show you a laundry list of players of not just top players where I've contributed to their Serve development plus many others I haven't contributed to, who demonstrate exactly what I'm sharing in the article. Having said that, don't look to blindly follow anyone's words as gospel....do your own research and apply your own knowledge from what you learn from slo motion video as well as credible industry influencers.

Remember, some folks are truly in the industry to give back to the sport while others seem to be just in it to take from the sport without any track record of giving much back.

Well, after all these years listening to Mark Kovacs, the biomechanical king of tennis, talking about how insufficient back leg drive is one of the key deficiencies for most serves (and implementing his drills to get the back leg more involved), now Pat basically argues the opposite. Who knows what to believe.

Same for me. This back leg thing doesnt work for me (as it is right now).

[John Yandell]

Yep! More from Pat to come. And I will hope to get Mark eventually. And yes who knows is a good question...

[fedisthebest]

Well, after all these years listening to Mark Kovacs, the biomechanical king of tennis, talking about how insufficient back leg drive is one of the key deficiencies for most serves (and implementing his drills to get the back leg more involved), now Pat basically argues the opposite. Who knows what to believe.

[stroke]

Thanks Pat, that is helpful.

[patdougherty]

You could certainly begin in a much more narrow stance if that's your style preference without impeding key fundamentals. I often do a drill where the weight starts on the front foot and the back foot rests on the tip of the shoe perpendicular to the ground. This trains the front side to be able to develop balance and the whole motion can be done from the front foot. I attached a video of me working with Ramos-Vinolas in Spain several years ago to create the winding/coiling hip and shoulder separation in set-to-launch. He really like the concept of feeling tightly coiled with the hitting elbow stretched back, chest aimed up and shoulder blades nearly touch each other, same as you feel when drawing an arrow fully back in a bow. I use many conceptual models as you can tell which helps overcome potential language barriers. https://youtube.com/shorts/JFE0rR9Cg...rIQXQPqnjI8t2D

[John Yandell]

Good question I will let him know!