Rather frustrating...

[gzhpcu]

Its in moments like these that I really envy my idol Pancho Gonzalez, who was a natural. With no schooling, he just went and did it, and had one of the most beautiful, natural motions ever IMHO:

I really appreciate all the input and patience all of you have shown in this thread, I just am getting a bit overwhelmed at all the different suggestions that I have gotten, and am wading patiently through all of them.

Think I see what you mean about the shoulder turn narburg....

[tennis_chiro]

Steve Martens on iCoach

I admire your energy to succeed!

On the ITF tennisIcoach website you can find a lot of video workshops. One of the many videos is from Steve Martens (!!!) and is called "development of the serve from beginner to intermediate (55 minutes)". It is a must for every teacher. He doesn't describe the caracteristics but explains to make "what actually happens happen". He explains the basic relationships between the body segments.

<<<The Upward Swing - John Yandell
Second there is a very complex interplay of movements that creates that speed in that fraction of a second, movements that include the upper arm, the elbow, the forearm, the shoulder and the wrist. These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other.
You can forget about seeing all that accurately with the naked eye. Even high speed video, as we will see, still leaves issues open to question and disagreement. So yeah, passionate, knowledgeable people come to different conclusions.
I’ve written about some of these debated issues before in articles on the movement of the wrist (Click Here), and on the motions of Federer (Click Here), Roddick (Click Here) and Sampras (Click Here). I’ve also gotten into many, shall we say, animated discussions, on internet message boards and at coaching conventions over what actually happens.
Then there is the related but not identical issue--how to make what actually happens happen. This is an equally puzzling and possibly even more debated question. And the one that really matters for players who want to improve their serves. >>>


In short he describes 3 fases. 1. loading 2. turn 3. throw. But more important how they are connected.
In your video you load and you throw right away. You don't have fase 2; an independent turn. Independent in that sense that there is hardly any racket action. It is very clear that you pull the racket right after you have loaded. I am sure this is the first step you need to take now. I have learned this to so many players with great results.

If you pull the racket right away after loading you will never, never, never get a racket drop as described. I think you have the arm and racket action like Kerry Mitchell as described in the other thread. So if you learn this the racket drop will be more visible. Because now it get's time to happen.

By the way only use the racket drop when you analyse your movement. The racket drop is a caracteristic of the upward movement of the wrist. There is no pro who makes the serve happen from this image. They make images from the upward task at hand.

Great lead, Nabrug. USTA High Performance just notified us of our complimentary memberships in iCoach. We had had that once before. It has a different flavor from the evidence based nature of what you find here on Tennisplayer, but it is excellent for giving a flavor of what top coaches around the world are doing at a lot of different levels. This particular developmental presentation on beginning/intermediate serve instruction may be exactly what Phil needs to give him a different perspective on achieving the bigger serve snap he is trying to develop.

No wonder Belgium and France are so much more successful in developing players than the US. I feel we are still years behind in adopting the kinds of developmental tools that are available on the iCoach site and, of course, on Tennisplayer. The fact that USPTA decided to let the membership in Tennisplayer expire says something about the level of involvement in developing greater skills among its (my fellow) members. Steve Martens does a great job at getting to fundamentals and showing where the "pro drop" Phil is trying to achieve comes from. It is really the same pathway that Kerry Mitchell is taking us down in his article, but Martens gets it down to its simplest form. I found a couple of things I could use in there to help me with kids (adults too) that just don't "get it" very easily. And I already use a lot of progressions after starting out over 40 years ago with Van der Meer and Braden and running programs for both of them (very different approaches).

Check it out Phil.

don

[nabrug]

So hard to make improvements....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMc1nDgvnM

I admire your energy to succeed!

On the ITF tennisIcoach website you can find a lot of video workshops. One of the many videos is from Steve Martens (!!!) and is called "development of the serve from beginner to intermediate (55 minutes)". It is a must for every teacher. He doesn't describe the caracteristics but explains to make "what actually happens happen". He explains the basic relationships between the body segments.

<<<The Upward Swing - John Yandell
Second there is a very complex interplay of movements that creates that speed in that fraction of a second, movements that include the upper arm, the elbow, the forearm, the shoulder and the wrist. These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other.
You can forget about seeing all that accurately with the naked eye. Even high speed video, as we will see, still leaves issues open to question and disagreement. So yeah, passionate, knowledgeable people come to different conclusions.
I’ve written about some of these debated issues before in articles on the movement of the wrist (Click Here), and on the motions of Federer (Click Here), Roddick (Click Here) and Sampras (Click Here). I’ve also gotten into many, shall we say, animated discussions, on internet message boards and at coaching conventions over what actually happens.
Then there is the related but not identical issue--how to make what actually happens happen. This is an equally puzzling and possibly even more debated question. And the one that really matters for players who want to improve their serves. >>>


In short he describes 3 fases. 1. loading 2. turn 3. throw. But more important how they are connected.
In your video you load and you throw right away. You don't have fase 2; an independent turn. Independent in that sense that there is hardly any racket action. It is very clear that you pull the racket right after you have loaded. I am sure this is the first step you need to take now. I have learned this to so many players with great results.

If you pull the racket right away after loading you will never, never, never get a racket drop as described. I think you have the arm and racket action like Kerry Mitchell as described in the other thread. So if you learn this the racket drop will be more visible. Because now it get's time to happen.

By the way only use the racket drop when you analyse your movement. The racket drop is a caracteristic of the upward movement of the wrist. There is no pro who makes the serve happen from this image. They make images from the upward task at hand.

[gzhpcu]

So hard to make improvements....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMc1nDgvnM

[gzhpcu]

First of all, thanks for all the advice from the various posters. Would you believe, but I have never found a pro in Switzerland who could help me on my serve. They all say, the serve is fine, and I know it isn't...

In fact, a pro I work out with now and then, a 40-year old ex-Argentine ATP challenger player, even says my drop is fine, and don't need to do anything because Andres Gomez also didn't have much of a drop either.

So thank goodness for tennisplayer.net where knowledgeable persons can help me out on my search for as much perfection as my body allows me to achieve...

And a great tool to check if changes are occuring is video analysis...

[10splayer]

One small improvement: am getting my elbow a bit higher... still not in line with the shoulders, but will get there...

Yup, this has always been my position. To get the humerus bone at more of an 80+ degree angle to the torso. This is a good first step.

[tennis_chiro]

Probably, but not necessarily

Thanks Don. What I also have to change, is that the face of the racket needs to face the ground and less towards the side fence...

Smith and a lot of the other earlier servers did pretty well with that position for the racket face. It started to change a lot with Newcombe's motion.

don

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Don. What I also have to change, is that the face of the racket needs to face the ground and less towards the side fence...

[tennis_chiro]

real change

One small improvement: am getting my elbow a bit higher... still not in line with the shoulders, but will get there...

Phil,
If that picture is a realistic representation of the change you have made in the stroke, that is a huge improvement. Just let the racket head have enough momentum to keep moving in the direction it is going right there, even as your elbow might slow down a little bit and your racket will fall right onto the line don-budge has been talking about and that I was trying to get you to find with my "figure-8's". That is a very significant change. From there, getting to a better "pro-drop" position is a lot more likely to occur...if you keep working at it. Keep it up!

don

[gzhpcu]

One small improvement: am getting my elbow a bit higher... still not in line with the shoulders, but will get there...

[gzhpcu]

I have been away in Venice for 4 days, and now we just hosted the Fed Cup (Switzerland - Sweden) at our club over the weekend, so that I haven't been able to play for over a week.... but will give it a try this week...

[llll]

nice paintings phil
hows the throwing the racquet at the ball coming along

[gzhpcu]

[llll]

Thanks Don for your thoughts.

As far as the grip on the serve is concerned, on Tennisone, they say:



It has always been my understanding that the thumb and forefinger should be loose on groundstrokes...

Aesthetics is very important to me... (I am a hobby painter....)



Which is why I will work at getting a better looking serve, and, in the process, I am sure, an even better one...

keep working at it tiger(nice painting)

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Don for your thoughts.

As far as the grip on the serve is concerned, on Tennisone, they say:



It has always been my understanding that the thumb and forefinger should be loose on groundstrokes...

Aesthetics is very important to me... (I am a hobby painter....)



Which is why I will work at getting a better looking serve, and, in the process, I am sure, an even better one...