Using the resources of Tennis Player to Construct and improve one's game

[jryle1]

What's not to understand? Teachers in all fields learn from their students every day. As to the "nudge" part, you and I, separately, found that Macci's "nudge" advice was something we needed to take seriously and hadn't really been able to come up with on our own. That at least was my interpretation of that part of your post. Which is directly related to Brian Gordon's essays about development of The ATP Style Forehand with their emphasis on free motion from the shoulder-- back, down and forward in my view.

Well, we're lucky that we can get both technical and more sensory explanations of the same thing in this website. I would never blame anybody for tacking more toward one or the other although my personal method is to use both.

Well, thanks for the thanks. Maybe you were worried by the "pitcher" part of my post where I voiced my fear for every student in every field-- that he or she will be overly passive and drawn to command style rather than Socratic interaction.

Actually, command can work very well in tennis. Just ask Robert Lansdorp. I'll bet, however, that even he has been known to reason with some of his students. And I love the tennischiro-Stotty-donbudge-bottle theme in these pages that the best learning of all occurs when you figure out something difficult all by yourself, with, of course, a little help from your friends.

Ah I understand everything now. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, at my age, I can't of find myself in both fields still. At 20 years of age I'm a qualified tennis coach, coaching about 10-12 hours a week in my club, it's my part-time job outside of university yet I'm still determined to try to play to the highest level possible and want to continue improving my game. I'm kind of stuck in the Teacher-Student gap, I want to be both but they really conflict a lot and generally being the teacher allows me to eat, while being the student doesn't so the teacher generally wins out!

[bottle]

What's not to understand? Teachers in all fields learn from their students every day. As to the "nudge" part, you and I, separately, found that Macci's "nudge" advice was something we needed to take seriously and hadn't really been able to come up with on our own. That at least was my interpretation of that part of your post. Which is directly related to Brian Gordon's essays about development of The ATP Style Forehand with their emphasis on free motion from the shoulder-- back, down and forward in my view.

Well, we're lucky that we can get both technical and more sensory explanations of the same thing in this website. I would never blame anybody for tacking more toward one or the other although my personal method is to use both.

Well, thanks for the thanks. Maybe you were worried by the "pitcher" part of my post where I voiced my fear for every student in every field-- that he or she will be overly passive and drawn to command style rather than Socratic interaction.

Actually, command can work very well in tennis. Just ask Robert Lansdorp. I'll bet, however, that even he has been known to reason with some of his students. And I love the tennischiro-Stotty-donbudge-bottle theme in these pages that the best learning of all occurs when you figure out something difficult all by yourself, with, of course, a little help from your friends.

[jryle1]

I like the "no nudge" part in # 15. If jryle1 wasn't nudging before he started to nudge, and bottle wasn't nudging before he started to nudge, then probably thousands of people ought to nudge who are not nudging right now.

That, therefore, should be useful information for anybody who fancies himself a tennis teacher.

You, jryle1, aren't just a pitcher waiting to be filled up but have a lot to teach the teachers, too, so congratulations on this wish by you (sadly, all too rare) to actually communicate.

I'm not too sure I quite fully understand this post but I'm going to say thank you anyway?

[bottle]

For jryle1

I like the "no nudge" part in # 15. If jryle1 wasn't nudging before he started to nudge, and bottle wasn't nudging before he started to nudge, then probably thousands of people ought to nudge who are not nudging right now.

That, therefore, should be useful information for anybody who fancies himself a tennis teacher.

You, jryle1, aren't just a pitcher waiting to be filled up but have a lot to teach the teachers, too, so congratulations on this wish by you (sadly, all too rare) to actually communicate.

[jasonfrausto]

No repayment necessary! I do this stuff for my students all the time and enjoy doing it. Start with that grip change I do agree with multiple perspectives (John and others) that you don't need a carbon copy of a stroke, having your own unique elements is beneficial, as long as those unique elements aren't what is failing you within the stroke. Get that moving and hitting footage/pointplay stuff recorded and that will probably benefit you the most.

[jryle1]

Great work, Jason. Extraordinarily generous what you have done here.

Jonathan, you've been answering a lot of your own questions right from the start. You seem a little insecure of your judgement and are looking for confirmation for others. Mostly you don't need it. Discovering the game for yourself is by far the best way to learn.

A couple of things:

1. Your conservative grip does make it a little tough to carry out the ATP forehand you are looking for. It looks like you're having to awkwardly manipulate the hand/wrist to achieve this during some stages of the backswing. Tweaking the grip seems a good move here. Your left arm stretch may be slightly on the high side.

2. As you have stated yourself, the key thing is your footwork. Your base is too narrow on some shots. Opt for a wider base with your feet and sink down a little more. Set up better, too, if you can. don_budge's "three lines" spring to mind here.

3. Trying to micro manage every aspect of a stroke is pretty near impossible and tends to lead to players becoming "hung up" about their strokes. There comes a point when players need to forget their strokes and do battle with what they have. If I were you I would concentrate on making the basic things better, then concern yourself more with the effectiveness of your strokes rather than imitating in micro detail some lofty role model. That would be Federer to date by the look of it.

Once again, thank you to Jason for such a wonderful effort in trying to help you.

NB. I never liked Mardy's racket tip pointing so far forward so late in the backswing. He gets away with it...most club players don't.

Jason has been very kind with what he has done, and I will look to repay him in the future in whatever way I can. He's been very helpful.

Yeah, I originally modeled it on Federer yeah.

I agree with your points as well. I am very conservative when it comes to my opinion on things. I don't like to express my opinion without the opinions of others on it sometimes. It's a confidence thing really. When it comes to being a coach, I'm quite experienced for a 20 year old but I'm not that experienced so I like to try to surround myself with more knowledgeable people and draw on their experiences and continue to learn as best I can about the game.


I did think the backswing as a little high, and the left arm but I didn't mention it before. Now that you have pointed it out I may try and lower it a bit. I did experiment a tiny bit with lowering it but it felt awkward, was only just a little experiment but I might try to, when I'm shifting the grip to the more modern "Eastern" I will try to lower my left arm stretch as well.

I like Don's posts on the forum. Will check out the 3 lines thing. The footwork is the big thing though.

And on the last point I completely agree. In the past I tried to copy the pros to every single aspect but my view has changed on this only recently. It's been a gradual change. John talking about pros finding their own most effective way of hitting the ball and that people are individuals has been slowly convincing to try and do what's best for me and not what another person does well. Sure you can take key checkpoints etc. for reference but it's better to develop your own style and game. What really convinced me on this was an article Federer did for the Wimbledon site called where he said "You don't want another me". Was a good read. So now I'm focused on developing what's best for me, buying clothes that suit me, using a racket that suits me, playing my game, making myself successful with my talents and not copy catting other players. It's a great point and thanks for making it.


Just to clarify as well, this thread is kind of just fun for me. I will take on board any opinions about what I'm doing but I didn't create this to actively seek them. I just thought it may be interesting for you guys to see how a fellow subscriber is using the resources of this brilliant site that got me into coaching to use. Thanks for all the kind words and help though, it is of course greatly appreciated and will be re-paid in whatever way possible

[stotty]

Great work, Jason. Extraordinarily generous what you have done here.

Jonathan, you've been answering a lot of your own questions right from the start. You seem a little insecure of your judgement and are looking for confirmation for others. Mostly you don't need it. Discovering the game for yourself is by far the best way to learn.

A couple of things:

1. Your conservative grip does make it a little tough to carry out the ATP forehand you are looking for. It looks like you're having to awkwardly manipulate the hand/wrist to achieve this during some stages of the backswing. Tweaking the grip seems a good move here. Your left arm stretch may be slightly on the high side.

2. As you have stated yourself, the key thing is your footwork. Your base is too narrow on some shots. Opt for a wider base with your feet and sink down a little more. Set up better, too, if you can. don_budge's "three lines" spring to mind here.

3. Trying to micro manage every aspect of a stroke is pretty near impossible and tends to lead to players becoming "hung up" about their strokes. There comes a point when players need to forget their strokes and do battle with what they have. If I were you I would concentrate on making the basic things better, then concern yourself more with the effectiveness of your strokes rather than imitating in micro detail some lofty role model. That would be Federer to date by the look of it.

Once again, thank you to Jason for such a wonderful effort in trying to help you.

NB. I never liked Mardy's racket tip pointing so far forward so late in the backswing. He gets away with it...most club players don't.

[jasonfrausto]

Jonathan,

I think you hit the nail on the head in every area! Continue tweaking and improving.

[jryle1]

Thanks! I really hope people add useful commentary to the comparison stills that will help Jonathan on his forehand.

Jonathan,

Unfortunately I was unable to run your videos taken from YouTube and get them to work in a full video analysis with the software program. I was however able to take still shots of you in your stroke at the same time as the pro players (Fish, Del Potro).

The distortion you see is either from me snagging your videos from YouTube or the issues between using your 210FPS and the 240FPS video of TennisPlayer. Not sure, but hopefully the still image analysis in the same stages of the swing will be helpful. I've highlighted differences I see in each stage with the pro players as well as some commonalities.

I'll leave it up to the board to determine what they see based on the photos.



Delpo is hitting a wide forehand, that is why the position of his racket is so different compared to both you and Mardy at this stage.







In the 4th image below it is tough to see because of your racket color and your shorts blending but your face is slightly open when pulling the frame forward in this particular shot. I can see it when running the video, but it can be more difficult to see in still images.

Wow, Jason, thanks a million for the above. It's pretty incredible. Great shots.

In relation to the first still, I think that's bang on. When I watched Rick Macci's video on the ATP forehand and he mentioned the "nudge" during the backswing with the elbow I knew straight away I didn't do it. I think looking at those stills it's pretty clear that my elbow is a lot closer to my body and a lot more tucked in than a lot of the other pros. Could this tucked in position be a factor in the pulling across with the racket head, and hence slapping the ball rather than the low to high motion which I will talk about when we get there.


For the 2nd still, the left arm and racket seem to be in pretty acceptable positions, once more a big difference being the elbow position. It's a lot tighter to my body than Fish and Delpo.

In the third still, my racket face is a lot more open than any other player I've seen in this position and the question here I ask myself there is, why? And I think the reason is a function of my grip. Because of my grip being so conservative I think it means my racket face will naturally be more open in this position but I'm not too sure on this! Will require some experimentation.

And you're right in that 4th still, my racket face is more open, again is this a function of the grip? Some experimentation might help us out on that one!


And finally, the 5th and 6th frames are the very interesting ones!! I have always suffered on my finish. It's far too low in relation to the model and comes across too much rather than up. This is probably the main reason for the lack of spin and the tendency to "Slap" the ball too flat. Why is this though? Is it a matter of physical strength or some other factor and this is where I'm going to throw in this point:


When I'm warming up in the boxes, I can generate ample amounts of spin no problem on my forehand, when I move back to the baseline though I'm unable to generate this spin. Which leads me to this question... How much has my footwork, body position and contact point contributed to my lack of ability to be consistent and hit spin on my forehand from the baseline. My having poor footwork and not using my body and also by being too far away from the ball, and only using my arm the reason why I'm unable to bring the racket from the low to high position like I am when warming up in the boxes.

It's an interesting question because maybe in the boxes because the ball is slower and easier to get to, maybe my position is better, my contact point is better and therefore I'm able to use my body better and not rely on my arm and thus my finish is better, but when I move back, when the ball gets quicker and starts coming with more spin (despite the fact this was a fed ball), maybe the contact point gets further away due to bad footwork and positioning, as a result I'm unable to use my whole body in the shot, and as a result I completely "arm" the ball and I don't have the physical strength in just my arm to continue the low to high path and as a result my follow through looks forced and I slap the ball and come across it.

It's an interesting idea I think and an idea I'm going to have to experiment with. What I'm going to plan is the following:

I'm going to tape me hitting my forehand in the boxes warming up where I'm happy with my ability to hit spin, just out of curiosity. I'm then going to move my grip more towards an Eastern Forehand and see how this affects my forehand, and I'm going to work on my contact point from the baseline, trying to get it further in front and closer to my body and then we'll see what happens.


Also, I'm expecting my Bailey Method Pro Pack to arrive sometime next week so looking forward to getting to work on that which will surely help!


Thanks again Jason for the fabulous work and insight. It's interesting! For me anyway!

[jasonfrausto]

Nice work Jason!

Thanks! I really hope people add useful commentary to the comparison stills that will help Jonathan on his forehand.

[vrc10s]

pictures

Nice work Jason!

[jasonfrausto]

Images 5 and 6 below.

[jasonfrausto]

Jonathan,

Unfortunately I was unable to run your videos taken from YouTube and get them to work in a full video analysis with the software program. I was however able to take still shots of you in your stroke at the same time as the pro players (Fish, Del Potro).

The distortion you see is either from me snagging your videos from YouTube or the issues between using your 210FPS and the 240FPS video of TennisPlayer. Not sure, but hopefully the still image analysis in the same stages of the swing will be helpful. I've highlighted differences I see in each stage with the pro players as well as some commonalities.

I'll leave it up to the board to determine what they see based on the photos.



Delpo is hitting a wide forehand, that is why the position of his racket is so different compared to both you and Mardy at this stage.







In the 4th image below it is tough to see because of your racket color and your shorts blending but your face is slightly open when pulling the frame forward in this particular shot. I can see it when running the video, but it can be more difficult to see in still images.

[jasonfrausto]

As in using a WTA Style forehand? So the racket face should face the back fence and not to the side like the ATP forehand? Or when the racket is facing the side just extend my arm fully?





They were shot at 210 fps. Any reason why or do you need any more info or just curious?

I've been doing stroke analysis through MotionView the last 8 years or so, I was going to run you in a side by side with Federer and some of the other big boys and post a link on YouTube for you to check out. Most of the stuff on TennisPlayer is shot in 120FPS, 250FPS, or 500FPS so I'm not sure how much of a discrepancy 210FPS to 250FPS would cause in an actual comparison. Thanks for the info, I may put something together if the different videos will cooperate.

Jason

[jryle1]

I would try this, when you take back, face the hitting bed to the rear fence, straighten out your arm all the way to the back, not in a double bend, while the racquet tip is still vertical, and then go to the type III snap back, and you will increase the avail kinetic force/work with your arm extended all the way back. YOur unit turn is good, and that's half the battle.

As in using a WTA Style forehand? So the racket face should face the back fence and not to the side like the ATP forehand? Or when the racket is facing the side just extend my arm fully?

No problem, and last question. What FPS did you shoot these videos at?

They were shot at 210 fps. Any reason why or do you need any more info or just curious?