Has Zverev "Fixed" His Second Serve?

[stroke]

I think Alex could incorporate more shoulder turn, particularly on his 2nd serve, without a big change to a platform. Goran certainly had no problem hitting a kick serve and I think he actually brought up his back foot past his front foot sometimes. Nick has no problem with a kick either with a similar motion. Roddick had a massive kick serve with pretty much a very narrow platform. Certainly Alex could try to work into a more Roddick like setup, either by starting from that position or bringing his back foot up to that set up.

[don_budge]

No, he hasn't. Exhibit A, quarter final loss to Fritz at Indian Wells.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMQeYzphIzY

Yes...Exhibit A. Leave it to glacierguy. The rest are asleep at the wheel. Question...how is Zverev going to correct imperfections or unreliability in his second serve if he doesn't correct his imperfect way of delivering the ball. The stats are misleading regarding the service motion/game/tactics. You cannot measure nerves. Of all the imperfect motions on tour...they work most of the time. Why? Because these guys are very athletic and the modern game is not as dependent upon the serve in the way the classic game was. Most are impressed with speed or statistical analysis. But there is another factor.

The false narrative is that he has a great first but the second needs work. The reality is that he has an imperfect service motion and it isn't always going to go off the track, but the ironic thing is that one day when he needs it most it is going to derail. It is going off the track. Sometimes nerves have a funny way of rearing their ugly little head. Right out there for everyone to see. It certainly did as Zverev attempted to just do what should be a routine challenge...serve out the match. He tried and his serve let him down. Was it his second serve? Didn't he have to miss a first serve to attempt the second? His serve let him down. When he needed it most. This is in his head now...brewing for another meltdown in the future.

I have seen this happen to many players and serving out a match is a tricky situation. The seeds of doubt just somehow seem to creep into your mind and the mind sends out bad vibrations to the body. The body knows that the motion is designed to fail in a pressure situation and it is a self fulfilling premonition. Prophesy. Fascinating display by Zverev...to validate everything I have ever written about the frictionless service motion. Much like the golf swing. If it is flawed...it is just a matter of time. Circumstance.

[don_budge]

My opinion:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members..._zverev_serve/

From the article:

"There are two related technical issues. First, Zverev has very little body turn away from the ball in his windup. Second he is over rotating his torso during the upward swing so it is virtually parallel to the net at contact. These issues are in turn related to his starting position and his stance."

"But for Zverev that would mean moving from his pinpoint stance to a platform. That would be a big change in the feeling of the motion."

"But it also stuns me that some players still have glaring technical flaws. These aren't cosmetic. They often seem directly related to the effectiveness or lack of effectiveness of certain strokes."

Alexander Zverev's problems with his serve...first and second...originate in a less than optimal/perfect setup position from where to begin his swing. If you setup incorrectly the motion becomes a series of compensatory moves. Ideally you scrap the whole train wreck and go back to the drawing board. Realistically what will happen is there will be micro interventions that will create another problem in the motion. It will work for a time but in the long run if it isn't "Fundamentally Correct" (FC)...it is designed to fail. The service motion is somewhat of an upside down golf swing. You don't see any professional golfers that have some obtuse movements in their delivery of the club head to the ball. No...they all look basically the same. Setup, backswing...transition to forwards swing...swing and follow through.

You don't find many Fundamentally Correct service motions, they are virtually nonexistent in professional tennis any longer. The last one I remember was none other than...Roger Federer. The Living Proof no less.

Great piece with links to other interesting articles, John.

I suspect the trap is convincing Zverev to tinker with his serve when his first serve is one of the most effective in the world. How do you convince him to risk his first to save his second?

This is a post that I started but never finished with my final thoughts on the matter.

[glacierguy]

No, he hasn't. Exhibit A, quarter final loss to Fritz at Indian Wells.

[John Yandell]

Almost like being there and you got to avoid Vegas...

[seano]

John -

Totally forgot you had all these analysis of the pros strokes, will have to reread them all. Great insight. Will get a good feel for your seminar at the USPTA National Conference this year, with Rublev's serve, Gauff's Forehand and Raonic's Backhand.

Sean

[jimlosaltos]

My opinion:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/article...-zverev-serve/

Great piece with links to other interesting articles, John.

I suspect the trap is convincing Zverev to tinker with his serve when his first serve is one of the most effective in the world. How do you convince him to risk his first to save his second?

[doctorhl]

John: I forgot reading about your earlier analysis and how It so clearly revealed the shoulder setup and rotational problem that play a bigger role than any problem he might have had with racket face positioning. That open shoulder position at contact sure could force over- emphasis on arm/hand manipulation to generate speed. Amazing how the Federer model can work from the ground up and time the rotation and extension of body segments so perfectly that Federer really doesn’t have to physically interject “participation” in the serve to generate speed/accuracy. I wonder how coaches teach kids to develop a trust in motor memory and smooth play in their development when losing points—the “Muscle Panic” usually sets in. But, some are more mentally suited to the Nadal grind I suppose. Would be interesting to see a Federer versus Nadal golf swing.

[John Yandell]

My opinion:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/article...-zverev-serve/

[doctorhl]

Mark Petchey announcing Laver Cup just said that the problem with Zverev's second serve is that "his racket face is too open", presumably on take back. and that this could be fixed.

Don't shoot the messenger, just sharing another perspective.

Although some might say a poor comparison, try beginning the forward motion of an American football throw with open palm position( open face) versus a more closed palm position. See if those hand positional differences, exaggerated by the different object, give a SIMILAR DIFFERENCE in feel of acceleration of arm rotation and position of hand at contact as that of the open face and closed face forward motion of the tennis serve.

[don_budge]

Mark Pesky announcing Laver Cup just said that the problem with Zverev's second serve is that "his racket face is too open", presumably on take back. and that this could be fixed.

Don't shoot the messenger, just sharing another perspective.

Alexander Zverev's problems with his serve...first and second...originate in a less than optimal/perfect setup position from where to begin his swing. If you setup incorrectly the motion becomes a series of compensatory moves. Ideally you scrap the whole train wreck and go back to the drawing board. Realistically what will happen is there will be micro interventions that will create another problem in the motion. It will work for a time but in the long run if it isn't "Fundamentally Correct" (FC)...it is designed to fail. The service motion is somewhat of an upside down golf swing. You don't see any professional golfers that have some obtuse movements in their delivery of the club head to the ball. No...they all look basically the same. Backswing...transition to forwards swing...swing and follow through.

You don't many Fundamentally Correct motions are virtually nonexistent in professional tennis any longer. The last one I remember was none other than...Roger Federer. The Living Proof no less.

[jimlosaltos]

Mark Petchey announcing Laver Cup just said that the problem with Zverev's second serve is that "his racket face is too open", presumably on take back. and that this could be fixed.

Don't shoot the messenger, just sharing another perspective.

[stotty]

For the event through the semifinals, Djokovic is fourth in double faults with 26 to Zverev's 23.

Interesting.

I don't always read too much into double fault stats. It's not the doubles you do but where you do them and in what manner. Novak tends to throw them in when it doesn't count all that much; Zverev throws them in when it really, really counts. To me that is a colossal difference. The manner in which Zverez conceded a double to drop the opening service game of the fifth set was also troubling, basically going for a second serve ace, which suggests he lost confidence in his second serve. Worrying.

I think Zverez is more dependent on his serve than Novak. As McEnroe recently put it, "Novak was winning slams before he even had a serve".

Everyone goes on about Novak's underrated serve, which I guess suggests it's widely accepted it is no longer underrated. It's a good serve. He has this Borg-like ability to deliver a pinpoint first serve when it counts most all in a match.

My favourite serving stat/record is that of Roger's, winning 35 points in a row on his serve against Lopez.

[jimlosaltos]

It's a long run. A very, very long run. The second serve? Kyle once said that you are only as good as your second serve. Alexander "Second Serve" Zverev has come along since that deer in the headlights look. But he fell a bit short at the U. S. Open against the still "Meteoric" Novak Djokovic. Is it the second serve or is it a question of mobility and balance? When you are so close and flirting with the finals of the U. S. Open...these are fine margins. Splitting hairs. He is searching for potential in his game. Where is there room for improvement? The game is so very mental and the fine hairs the top players are splitting are many times in the head. What was the difference between Alexander and Novak Djokovic last night? A wizened observer might come to the conclusion that it was in his head. It was in Novak's head. He conjured the dragon. He summoned the dragon once more. It's mental. He believed he would win. What is a man...what has he got?

"For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught
To say the words he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels"

I don't know don_budge. But Zverev won more of his second-serve points than Djokovic last night, even with 8 doubles -- 49% vs 43%, 23 of 47 vs 22 of 51. If Zverev had gotten those 8 doubles in he might have won 3 more points, but would they have been the right ones?

For the event through the semifinals, Djokovic is fourth in double faults with 26 to Zverev's 23.

I found myself talking to the TV screen, asking Zverev to keep serving wide to Novak's forehand (given that he was returning from near Rafa-land) and hitting wide there in rallies.

Maybe he just needed a few more of those at the right time Always easier from the couch than the baseline.

[don_budge]

Statistics are one thing and the battle on the ground is quite another. But, for sure, the stats for Zverev should be improving with time. Otherwise what would be the point? The difference in Alexander Zverev of late is not going to show up in the stats and that is his mental and competitive attributes. He is gaining in experience and losing that "deer in the headlights" look. He came on quite quickly and it took some time for him to feel comfortable with his status. He took his lumps but hung in there and worked his way up the food chain again.

It has helped that attrition has taken its toll on the field. The field is considerably weaker than it was a few years ago. Many of the better players are no longer playing or are in decline. Surely every aspect of his game has improved. Surely his second serve has improved. But it is the cumulative effect of his game that has enabled him. His forehand is not longer the reputed weakness of his game. But I wonder what his impact will be in the long run. He is a bit tall to be running around the baseline grinding it out as a baseliner. So many of these big guys end up with injuries trying to play a game that doesn't suit them ergonomically speaking.

Speaking of the serve...if he really wanted to improve it he would be serving and volleying. But of course that is not an option these days. Afterall, the concept of the game is no longer what it once was. The biggest mitigating factor in Alexander Zverev has been experience. He has learned from his failures and his successes. He is maturing. But the jury is still out. It's a long run. It's a marathon...not a sprint. As he is finding out.

It's a long run. A very, very long run. The second serve? Kyle once said that you are only as good as your second serve. Alexander "Second Serve" Zverev has come along since that deer in the headlights look. But he fell a bit short at the U. S. Open against the still "Meteoric" Novak Djokovic. Is it the second serve or is it a question of mobility and balance? When you are so close and flirting with the finals of the U. S. Open...these are fine margins. Splitting hairs. He is searching for potential in his game. Where is there room for improvement? The game is so very mental and the fine hairs the top players are splitting are many times in the head. What was the difference between Alexander and Novak Djokovic last night? A wizened observer might come to the conclusion that it was in his head. It was in Novak's head. He conjured the dragon. He summoned the dragon once more. It's mental. He believed he would win. What is a man...what has he got?

"For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught
To say the words he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels"