Is the slice ever going to make a comeback for Women's tennis?

[arturohernandez]

This sounds very interesting. Provide some background info such as age, present training schedule, competition schedule and future aspirations. Kick it up a notch to get her to transition to the next level. I read that she is not going to play in college.

It's coming soon!

[don_budge]

It is getting very interesting. I am about to post two full games from a recent match. I would be very keen to get your take on things. I think she underestimates the value of her slice. When she really puts her body into it and does not just float it then it is lethal. But at times it is just a bunt and this is much less effective.

This sounds very interesting. Provide some background info such as age, present training schedule, competition schedule and future aspirations. Kick it up a notch to get her to transition to the next level. I read that she is not going to play in college.

[morespin]

I call the low, biting slice "slimy." Everyone has a tough time dealing with that shot.
It takes a while to get good at that shot but it's definitely worth the work.

[arturohernandez]

Why don't more people see that there is another way? Because they don't understand how to play the game. Good work on the "making the ball lie down" in the grey area of the court. Fool around with the landing zone relative to the sideline as well. This area of the court is often the achilles heel of the two hand backhand and it begs to be exploited. Once again, it is Roger Federer as "The Living Proof" as it seems that only he was aware of this tactic. Tactically if this is used in a Federer versus Djokovic example...Djokovic would have limited tactical responses and much of it is dictated by the height of the net. It would be pretty difficult to be aggressive going down the line over the high part of the net into the Federer forehand. So the response may just be a slice back to the Federer backhand then advantage Federer as Djokovic will now be playing Federer's game. Also if Federer brings Djokovic into this "no man's land" then Djokovic must retreat and he leaves his deep forehand corner vulnerable and even the backhand as well, particularly if he dares to go down the line to the Federer forehand. So much for anyone seeing that there is another way.

Slice backhands have a very large dispersion of executable variations. Learn to hit the medium high ball at various speeds ranging from medium pace to the soft side of soft, five to ten feet over the net and landing as close to the baseline as possible. Here is a great reset ball. Roger was using this tactic much more later in his career and it was so effective. Even on serve returns. If you get that ball over on the backhand side...once again it is sort of strange that it is difficult for the opponent to really drive such a ball. Taking the air out of the ball. Most championships are won with great defense. Tennis is no different and the slice backhand is an excellent defensive tool. The game is played constantly in transition...transition from offence to defense and vice versa. Having the slice backhand in all of its variations is a great transitional tool. A must have in the classic game. The slice can range from extreme defence to even tactical offence.

The thing that makes Roger Federer so unique is his seemless transition from defense to offence. Actually Djokovic is the master of this as well on the two hand backhand side of the game. It is imperative to keep the ball in play...particularly at the level your daughter is playing at now and buying time and keeping the point going while neutralizing is a very important tactic. Once a player at her level becomes very effective at this ploy then it the time to start on being able to drive that backhand as well. It sounds like it is getting interesting.

It is getting very interesting. I am about to post two full games from a recent match. I would be very keen to get your take on things. I think she underestimates the value of her slice. When she really puts her body into it and does not just float it then it is lethal. But at times it is just a bunt and this is much less effective.

[morespin]

I tell my players that it isn't about what they want to do or how they like to play, it's about what bothers their opponents the most. To be able to bother your opponents requires different spins, speeds, heights, etc.

How would I coach someone to play against my players? I see my players as opponents and how I would coach against them. Then I work with my players to become competent (at least) on those areas. "Do you want me to see what your weaknesses are or do you want the opponent and his/her coach to see your weaknesses?"

[don_budge]

And yet if a girl were to develop a great slice it would give her a path to beat many opponents she might lose to if she hit like everyone else. I worked with my daughter on heavy slices on Sunday. It is just nasty when she puts that much slice on it. It lands just past the service line and stays below the knees.

I do agree with everyone's view that the variance between Barty's jumpy forehand and low slice must have been unnerving.

But back to the use of the slice. There are so many times that I see players in heavy exchanges on TV and think "slice." Unless you are better than your opponent on a particular stroke, you will lose in an even exchange. So, the best shot is to change the pace. But do so more often.

Roger and Ash were the only ones who could really do it. So, we are left with bashers and if a player bashes they will eventually lose to someone who bashes better.

But if they tried to slice and mix it really well, it would be deadly. The question is why more people don't see that there is another way.

Why don't more people see that there is another way? Because they don't understand how to play the game. Good work on the "making the ball lie down" in the grey area of the court. Fool around with the landing zone relative to the sideline as well. This area of the court is often the achilles heel of the two hand backhand and it begs to be exploited. Once again, it is Roger Federer as "The Living Proof" as it seems that only he was aware of this tactic. Tactically if this is used in a Federer versus Djokovic example...Djokovic would have limited tactical responses and much of it is dictated by the height of the net. It would be pretty difficult to be aggressive going down the line over the high part of the net into the Federer forehand. So the response may just be a slice back to the Federer backhand then advantage Federer as Djokovic will now be playing Federer's game. Also if Federer brings Djokovic into this "no man's land" then Djokovic must retreat and he leaves his deep forehand corner vulnerable and even the backhand as well, particularly if he dares to go down the line to the Federer forehand. So much for anyone seeing that there is another way.

Slice backhands have a very large dispersion of executable variations. Learn to hit the medium high ball at various speeds ranging from medium pace to the soft side of soft, five to ten feet over the net and landing as close to the baseline as possible. Here is a great reset ball. Roger was using this tactic much more later in his career and it was so effective. Even on serve returns. If you get that ball over on the backhand side...once again it is sort of strange that it is difficult for the opponent to really drive such a ball. Taking the air out of the ball. Most championships are won with great defense. Tennis is no different and the slice backhand is an excellent defensive tool. The game is played constantly in transition...transition from offence to defense and vice versa. Having the slice backhand in all of its variations is a great transitional tool. A must have in the classic game. The slice can range from extreme defence to even tactical offence.

The thing that makes Roger Federer so unique is his seemless transition from defense to offence. Actually Djokovic is the master of this as well on the two hand backhand side of the game. It is imperative to keep the ball in play...particularly at the level your daughter is playing at now and buying time and keeping the point going while neutralizing is a very important tactic. Once a player at her level becomes very effective at this ploy then it the time to start on being able to drive that backhand as well. It sounds like it is getting interesting.

[arturohernandez]

As usual...Roger Federer is "The Living Proof". Proof of what used to be more or less standard issue. You can see even in the best one handed men's backhands these days that the universal use of the slice is exactly the opposite. It isn't universal. All are lacking in some sort of way or manner.

The slice is performed in a many plethora of ways and means. The backhand slice in particular. Even when hitting the ball in the air. The spin, speed and trajectory of the shot (the subtle power of the shot) are accomplished by:

1. The trajectory of the swing through the path of the ball. The trajectory ranges from severe "chopping" to almost flat.

2. The speed of the swing through the path of the ball.

3. The angle of the racquet face through the path of the ball. Ranging from nearly on its edge to completely open to the point where the strings are pointing to the sky.

4. The combination of the trajectory of the swing and the angle of the racquet face through the path of the ball.

morespin begins to give us a list of the possibilities and in reality they are too many to list. Tactically...the range is from severe defense to attacking offence. What passes for a slice backhand these days is far too one-dimensional. The subtle uses of slice in approach shots and volleying technique are extinct facets of the old classical game. So..."is the slice ever going to make a comeback for Women's tennis?" Answer...not unless we see a woman playing true serve and volley. Certainly and only if there is a one handed backhand woman playing the all court game. But I don't rule that out...given the proper combination of conditions coupled with a player that somehow finds themselves trained and skilled to carry out such a mission. But it will have to come at the proper coach teaching the proper student because all conventional wisdom has ruled out such an outcome.

And yet if a girl were to develop a great slice it would give her a path to beat many opponents she might lose to if she hit like everyone else. I worked with my daughter on heavy slices on Sunday. It is just nasty when she puts that much slice on it. It lands just past the service line and stays below the knees.

I do agree with everyone's view that the variance between Barty's jumpy forehand and low slice must have been unnerving.

But back to the use of the slice. There are so many times that I see players in heavy exchanges on TV and think "slice." Unless you are better than your opponent on a particular stroke, you will lose in an even exchange. So, the best shot is to change the pace. But do so more often.

Roger and Ash were the only ones who could really do it. So, we are left with bashers and if a player bashes they will eventually lose to someone who bashes better.

But if they tried to slice and mix it really well, it would be deadly. The question is why more people don't see that there is another way.

[stroke]

Fed no doubt had the best slice backhand. Grigor is very close.

[don_budge]

It seems to me that it is a coaching thing too. It doesn't seem like very many coaches teach girls how to mix up their spins and trajectories. Hitting the ball flat is kind of the "default setting" for most people. A player must learn how to hit different spins and trajectories.

The point is that every type of shot is teachable and learnable.

Absolutely. It's very difficult to read what shot is coming from the preparation of a slice. Set up to hit a slice backhand and then hit a "fader" down the line, a slow, deep neutralizer, a short angle crosscourt, a lob, or a drop shot. No other shot has that much versatility and disguise-ability.

As usual...Roger Federer is "The Living Proof". Proof of what used to be more or less standard issue. You can see even in the best one handed men's backhands these days that the universal use of the slice is exactly the opposite. It isn't universal. All are lacking in some sort of way or manner.

The slice is performed in a many plethora of ways and means. The backhand slice in particular. Even when hitting the ball in the air. The spin, speed and trajectory of the shot (the subtle power of the shot) are accomplished by:

1. The trajectory of the swing through the path of the ball. The trajectory ranges from severe "chopping" to almost flat.

2. The speed of the swing through the path of the ball.

3. The angle of the racquet face through the path of the ball. Ranging from nearly on its edge to completely open to the point where the strings are pointing to the sky.

4. The combination of the trajectory of the swing and the angle of the racquet face through the path of the ball.

morespin begins to give us a list of the possibilities and in reality they are too many to list. Tactically...the range is from severe defense to attacking offence. What passes for a slice backhand these days is far too one-dimensional. The subtle uses of slice in approach shots and volleying technique are extinct facets of the old classical game. So..."is the slice ever going to make a comeback for Women's tennis?" Answer...not unless we see a woman playing true serve and volley. Certainly and only if there is a one handed backhand woman playing the all court game. But I don't rule that out...given the proper combination of conditions coupled with a player that somehow finds themselves trained and skilled to carry out such a mission. But it will have to come at the proper coach teaching the proper student because all conventional wisdom has ruled out such an outcome.

[morespin]

Absolutely. It's very difficult to read what shot is coming from the preparation of a slice. Set up to hit a slice backhand and then hit a "fader" down the line, a slow, deep neutralizer, a short angle crosscourt, a lob, or a drop shot. No other shot has that much versatility and disguise-ability.

[doctorhl]

In my estimation the one handed backhand drop shot is easier to deceive the opponent and then execute from previous slices than from the topspin setup. A successful drop shot is worth more than one point because of its potential to remove the opponent's reliance to sit on their heels. Drop volleys get more feel from backhand slice preparation than from topspin preparation.

[morespin]

How do you get stronger? By working out!!! You get better/stronger if you work on it.

There seems to be two schools of thought. One says make your strengths stronger. The other says make your weaknesses stronger.
But, you have to admit that you have weaknesses and commit to working on them even if it's "not fun."

[jimlosaltos]

I think there might be a strength issue with girls. To hit a low, skidding slice one must have tricep and forearm strength. How does a player get stronger triceps and forearms? By hitting a lot of slices!

Great anecdote, but I liked the intro most: How do you get the strength to hit slices? <g>

[morespin]

I think there might be a strength issue with girls. To hit a low, skidding slice one must have tricep and forearm strength. How does a player get stronger triceps and forearms? By hitting a lot of slices!

It seems to me that it is a coaching thing too. It doesn't seem like very many coaches teach girls how to mix up their spins and trajectories. Hitting the ball flat is kind of the "default setting" for most people. A player must learn how to hit different spins and trajectories.

I used to coach a high school girl who played varsity doubles at one of the tennis powerhouses in Orange County, CA. All we did
was work on kick serves, heavy two-handed topspin backhands, and sliding slice backhands every lesson for a couple of years. She could hit the kick and make hit the back fence three or four feet above the ground on one bounce. Her slice backhand would barely come off the ground. Her two-hander would bite really hard. The boys she would play with said "she plays like a dude. I wish my serve would jump that hard." And she's only about 5'4" and 120lbs.

The point is that every type of shot is teachable and learnable.

[jimlosaltos]

I have been wondering why slice is so effective for girls compared to boys. I thought it might have something to do with strength in the forearm.

To your point about topspin in girls. My daughter states that girls often hit so flat. The ball just does not jump at her and tends to skid on the court more compared to the boys' ball which has much more topspin. The real interesting shot is my daughter's one handed topspin backhand which is relatively flat and very effective. It is like an old school Rosewall flat backhand. Now finally at 17 she is able to hit more topspin with one hand but just not as much as my son did when he was her age. His one hander was like a lob according to his teammates. Even today with little practice it generally bounces much higher.

This whole dynamic between teenage boys and girls is interesting from the one handed topspin side of things. Boys are able to generate more topspin and thus can feel competent at the one hander at a younger age. I see lots of them playing around with it. But only few will actually use it.

I very rarely see girls play around with a one handed topspin shot. Ultimately, that must come down to muscles, joints and strength. Trust me I am the last person to think they cannot hit one handed. It's just that the road is a bit longer to get the strength and coordination to be able to do it as well as boys can at a younger age. Does that fit with your view from the ground?

Never thought of it this way before, BUT there are a handful of WTA players that hit ATP level spin on their forehands. From memory, several are small-ish. Ash Barty, Maria Sakkari, maybe Iga were hitting in the 3,000 RPMs. Barty in her own words, not mine, "I'm not small but I am short." <g>. Sakkari has a gymnasts' build. Iga is 5 ft 9 in and fairly thin. So, certainly fit but not big. I