Is the slice ever going to make a comeback for Women's tennis?

[karan321]

I definitely think it makes sense to teach girls to use slice more often, especially since so many matches turn into straight up power struggles. When I competed, the few times I mixed in a slice, it totally threw people off because most players just didn’t expect it, they were waiting for another drive they could redirect. It might take a while for juniors to get comfortable, especially since slice technique isn’t pushed much by coaches, but adding that shot made me feel like I had so many more options once rallies got tight or I needed to break someone’s rhythm.

I noticed at big tournaments the smart players who had a solid slice could really frustrate even the most aggressive hitters, even on quick clay. If you’re chasing inspiration or curious about watching high-level variety, watching the French Major is a great way to see which pros really use their slice well. I check out a bunch of matchups in person by looking for French Major Tennis Tickets whenever I'm in Europe, it’s always worth seeing the tactics up close.

[don_budge]

Agreed. I will pay for college so I can add the condition of requiring her to play on the club team in order to "earn" her tuition. Her game is so pretty and I really think she should keep it up. I think the game will give something back to her if she sticks with it. Tennis players live longer too.

We are in the last few days of high school tennis. She is knocking on the door of beating better players. The slice is devastating. I mean she just makes people uncomfortable. She managed to beat the girl who won her last high school tournament. The girl lost 0 sets except to as you say it to one "Se?orita" Hernandez. My daughter won the only set from her 6-2. It was a master class in making the big banging girls unsure of themselves. It was first thing the morning after a rain delay made them come back the next day to finish a match. The champ of the whole tournament just began to miss balls all over the place. I watched the very next match of hers that was on the court next to my daughter's next match. Boom, boom, boom. Meanwhile, my daughter beat another big basher. This time the big basher was sporting ice every changeover. Coaches were coming on court to try and help her with a sore forearm. That is right. All the big banging takes its toll. The more classic game is much easier on the body. My daughter never complains about sore wrists, elbows or forearms. The legs, well that is another story. Five matches in two days with 10 min breaks in between is not easy. Even if most of them are shortened sets to 4.

Nonetheless, she consistently makes much better players look awkward. Now, if she can only do it for two sets rather than one.

That is the big if...

It's not if...it's when.

This is surely one of the most gratifying posts I have read on this forum ever. For me, this is what got me into the game. The game used to be a family endeavor. My original exposure was my parents going over to the tennis courts at the local Community College to bat it around with a couple of old wooden racquets and rather beat up tennis balls. That is how it started. At first...I was too young. Maybe at the end of their session Mom would give me a racquet and let my Dad toss a couple at me. Whatever...it was about following the parents. Just as you are doing arturohernandez.

This is getting interesting. The feedback about your daughter's competitve play is rather illuminating. It is a step in the right direction. Now there is the next step...and the next. No reason she cannot be competitive without participating in the women's team this year. Who knows? If she progresses they might invite her to come and try out next year. Or the next. Keep working. Physical conditioning will be paramount. Conditioning her psychologically is just as important now that you understand that the tactics are valid and can be applied across the board. This book..."How Play Better Tennis...a complete guide to tactics and technique" is a real eye opener. There are a couple of chapters in that little jewel about match play psychology that are just as important today as they were when Tilden wrote them in 1950 or thereabouts.

So this is threefold...conditioning, education and the drive backhand. It takes a year of work and application but It will pay big dividends. Then of course there is the service motion. It is an endeavor for a lifetime. You can never get to the end of it.

[arturohernandez]

On second thought...or is the third? The coach must work around the student. You must identify what are the character traits of your student in order to approach that particular student as an individual. One size does not fit all. In your case...from the limited information that I have, I believe that your student is quite "studious" by nature. This is somehow in her DNA. The book in my teaching paradigm is Bill Tilden, so I would recommend that you acquire both "Match Play and Spin of the Ball" and "How to Play Better Tennis...". The first was written in the 1920's and is still fundamentally sound to this very day. The second might be a bit outdated technique wise, although certain fundamentals are never going to change, but there is enough "white light" in this book to blow the mind of the tennis student.

Your daughter may not be going on to collegiate tennis but this doesn't have to be the end. It could very well be the beginning of a lifetime of recreational tennis. If she continues to mature and WORK, particularly on athletism...who knows? It just might be her default go to in terms of life management. This is just as important as being an outstanding tennis player. Love of the game. Teach her to be a student of the game. Eventually she might have a daughter or a son who she might teach. Carrying on the legacy of one...arturohernandez.

Agreed. I will pay for college so I can add the condition of requiring her to play on the club team in order to "earn" her tuition. Her game is so pretty and I really think she should keep it up. I think the game will give something back to her if she sticks with it. Tennis players live longer too.

We are in the last few days of high school tennis. She is knocking on the door of beating better players. The slice is devastating. I mean she just makes people uncomfortable. She managed to beat the girl who won her last high school tournament. The girl lost 0 sets except to as you say it to one "Se?orita" Hernandez. My daughter won the only set from her 6-2. It was a master class in making the big banging girls unsure of themselves. It was first thing the morning after a rain delay made them come back the next day to finish a match. The champ of the whole tournament just began to miss balls all over the place. I watched the very next match of hers that was on the court next to my daughter's next match. Boom, boom, boom. Meanwhile, my daughter beat another big basher. This time the big basher was sporting ice every changeover. Coaches were coming on court to try and help her with a sore forearm. That is right. All the big banging takes its toll. The more classic game is much easier on the body. My daughter never complains about sore wrists, elbows or forearms. The legs, well that is another story. Five matches in two days with 10 min breaks in between is not easy. Even if most of them are shortened sets to 4.

Nonetheless, she consistently makes much better players look awkward. Now, if she can only do it for two sets rather than one.

That is the big if...

[don_budge]

Chapter Seven..."The Value of Intensive Practice". Chapter Four goes hand in hand with the advice of the ability to transition from slice to drive in "Attack and Defence".

On second thought...or is the third? The coach must work around the student. You must identify what are the character traits of your student in order to approach that particular student as an individual. One size does not fit all. In your case...from the limited information that I have, I believe that your student is quite "studious" by nature. This is somehow in her DNA. The book in my teaching paradigm is Bill Tilden, so I would recommend that you acquire both "Match Play and Spin of the Ball" and "How to Play Better Tennis...". The first was written in the 1920's and is still fundamentally sound to this very day. The second might be a bit outdated technique wise, although certain fundamentals are never going to change, but there is enough "white light" in this book to blow the mind of the tennis student.

Your daughter may not be going on to collegiate tennis but this doesn't have to be the end. It could very well be the beginning of a lifetime of recreational tennis. If she continues to mature and WORK, particularly on athletism...who knows? It just might be her default go to in terms of life management. This is just as important as being an outstanding tennis player. Love of the game. Teach her to be a student of the game. Eventually she might have a daughter or a son who she might teach. Carrying on the legacy of one...arturohernandez.

[don_budge]

Chapter Seven..."The Value of Intensive Practice". Chapter Four goes hand in hand with the advice of the ability to transition from slice to drive in "Attack and Defence".

[don_budge]

With regards to your daughter's backhand the way forwards is two fold. Number one...work on the drive and you can take this advice to the bank. Number two...work very, very hard on her movement and stamina. Physical conditioning. This may go against her DNA but it is a must. You must get your feet set under you and it must be done quickly. You have to be ahead of the ball. Anticipation. Much can be accomplishe hitting against the wall. The Wall of Wall. The original wall...as defined by Torben Ulrich. The stroke can be conceived, honed and refined by infinite repetition. The footwork can be perfected at the same time. Work...work...work.

Take a page out of Tilden's "Match Play and the Spin of the Ball". Chapter Seven details how he himself learned to drive his backhand. He claimed it made all the difference from one year to the next.

[don_budge]

So the takeaway for Senorita Hernandez is that if she is finding that her opponents are showing some difficulty handling the slice backhand it is time to begin with earnest to learn to drive the ball. I actually began to build my drive backhand against the wall one summer. The summer between my junior and senior years at Ohio University. It took a couple of years to see real results but the work did eventually pay off. Big time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4H5hUCpb8U

Another case in point. Your honour...allow me to introduce state's evidence number eight. Juan Martin Del Potro added another dimension to the typical ATP draw when he was playing. The current draw in Miami is dreadfully boring. Unfortunately. But Juan was another "dangerous" hombre in the mix. A shame his career was cut short due to injury. Sort of like Robin S?derling. But here in Miami on a fairly windy day Roger Federer takes down "The Jolly Argentine Giant" touts suite. Another example of mixing the slice with the drive according to the conditions. Conditions dictate decisions. According to Tilden. The contrast in the foot work between "nimble toes" Federer and the "plodding" of the Jolly Giant del Potro is rather stark. It's a bit tougher to get your feet under you on every shot in the wind so it is a huge advantage to have the slice...the aggressive slice. If you don't have your feet squarely under you it is best not to drive it. If you are slightly off balance...play something that satisfies the percentages. Del Potro's use of the slice is interesting. In his case an injury to his wrist may have been dictating how he used it.

I just love the contrast in the serving here too. The pin point of Del Potro is at the mercy of the wind it seems. As so often is the case the pin point tosser of the ball throws it way too high. Then the wind can take subtle liberties with the ball as it hangs in the air. Federer isn't shy about serving this one out. Bing...bang...bye...see you never.

[arturohernandez]

https://www.atptour.com/en/players/a...adal/f324/n409

For years I screamed for Roger to change his equipment from this very forum. Either he didn't listen or more likely he never heard. But what a difference it made and one can imagine how many Grand Slam titles it may have cost him not to mention other lesser tournaments. This problem has existed ever since the fundamental change in the racquet. Size matters. All things being equal if players were using the same size the differential was manageable. For example...at the standard size material had a lesser effect.

But just look at this piece of evidence A...Federer's head to head against Nadal. The win for Federer in 2015 at Basel was with his old piece and then he switched and went 6-1 until the end. That was an interesting match that he lost to Nadal at Roland Garros for his last defeat at the hands of the Spaniard. It was played in a cyclone that played into the hands of Nadal. I have always wondered how he would have fared if the wind had not been blowing so hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rpV6KwotvY

The difference in the tactical paradigm pitting Roger's game against Nadal's was always lefty forehand into right one hand backhand. The spin overwhelmed Federer...until he switched. In this condensed match at Indian Wells where we have already viewed Roger against Kyrgios and Wawrinka...Federer declines resorting to the slice backhand and pretty much just unleashes the dragon. The dragon being his new found ability to drive the backhand aggressively from positions he had been unable to until the point where he evened things up.

For too long he handicapped himself with inferior equipment and his "team" has to bear the responsibility for this. If they were unable to talk some sense into him...what were they getting paid for. I was merely an observer and I could see how badly his racquet was costing him.

https://www.atptour.com/en/players/a...ovic/F324/D643

Curiously the racquet did not make the same impression on his results with Novak Djokovic. The reason is that the disparraging factor wasn't so much the equipment as it was in the legs. Novak being six years younger had a distinct advantage over Federer once the Swiss Maestro hit the age of thirty where the legs begin to wane a bit. Once he hit 35 the advantage was more glaring. So it really difficult to assess a Greatest Of All Time status with any surety. So many factors are lost in the translation.

The larger racket gave him a new life so to speak. But the legs were just not the same. The fact that he was even competitive at that age is amazing.

I fully expect that a healthy Alcaraz will make Novak look old. He is just so much more springy and has so much game.

One ace on match point and we would not even be thinking that 20 is not enough. Neither Novak or Rafa are likely to win or get close to a major final at the same age that Roger managed to pull it off.

[stroke]

I am not certain accepting technological change/improvements dictates some implied kind of given right, or sense of superiority.

[don_budge]

Ah yes! The Fed renaissance with an apples to apples racket he shows that everyone had been bothering him with a 10 sq inch advantage. Suddenly, the deficient backhand did not look so deficient anymore. With a meager 2 sq inch difference he was able to handle everything players could throw at him. He was in full flight on his way back from injury.

I railed and screamed bloody murder when the big racquets were introduced to the game. I yelled..."they are taking the art out of the game". Forty some years ago. My rantings fell on deaf ears. Golf too has had its share of engineering and the game has become unrecognizable in comparison to the classic game. I haven't heard a lot about any grumbling about the engineering but here is an article from a man who knows and understands the game. He sounds a bit like me in this regard...regarding the equipment. What a false sense of superiority this sort of change enables the human to categorically accept as some sort of given right. I believe that it some sort of abomination that is clearly being accepted into society at large. The new normal. Philosophically speaking. Not to be confused with politics.


https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/gol...medium=social& utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR0lbHl5-DZ4aGH7encKy8d6qOuTTTH5DizCQl9wcc3XIhSZ0E2vgo25Jwo

[don_budge]

So the takeaway for Senorita Hernandez is that if she is finding that her opponents are showing some difficulty handling the slice backhand it is time to begin with earnest to learn to drive the ball. I actually began to build my drive backhand against the wall one summer. The summer between my junior and senior years at Ohio University. It took a couple of years to see real results but the work did eventually pay off. Big time.

[don_budge]

Ah yes! The Fed renaissance with an apples to apples racket he shows that everyone had been bothering him with a 10 sq inch advantage. Suddenly, the deficient backhand did not look so deficient anymore. With a meager 2 sq inch difference he was able to handle everything players could throw at him. He was in full flight on his way back from injury.

https://www.atptour.com/en/players/a...adal/f324/n409

For years I screamed for Roger to change his equipment from this very forum. Either he didn't listen or more likely he never heard. But what a difference it made and one can imagine how many Grand Slam titles it may have cost him not to mention other lesser tournaments. This problem has existed ever since the fundamental change in the racquet. Size matters. All things being equal if players were using the same size the differential was manageable. For example...at the standard size material had a lesser effect.

But just look at this piece of evidence A...Federer's head to head against Nadal. The win for Federer in 2015 at Basel was with his old piece and then he switched and went 6-1 until the end. That was an interesting match that he lost to Nadal at Roland Garros for his last defeat at the hands of the Spaniard. It was played in a cyclone that played into the hands of Nadal. I have always wondered how he would have fared if the wind had not been blowing so hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rpV6KwotvY

The difference in the tactical paradigm pitting Roger's game against Nadal's was always lefty forehand into right one hand backhand. The spin overwhelmed Federer...until he switched. In this condensed match at Indian Wells where we have already viewed Roger against Kyrgios and Wawrinka...Federer declines resorting to the slice backhand and pretty much just unleashes the dragon. The dragon being his new found ability to drive the backhand aggressively from positions he had been unable to until the point where he evened things up.

For too long he handicapped himself with inferior equipment and his "team" has to bear the responsibility for this. If they were unable to talk some sense into him...what were they getting paid for. I was merely an observer and I could see how badly his racquet was costing him.

https://www.atptour.com/en/players/a...ovic/F324/D643

Curiously the racquet did not make the same impression on his results with Novak Djokovic. The reason is that the disparraging factor wasn't so much the equipment as it was in the legs. Novak being six years younger had a distinct advantage over Federer once the Swiss Maestro hit the age of thirty where the legs begin to wane a bit. Once he hit 35 the advantage was more glaring. So it really difficult to assess a Greatest Of All Time status with any surety. So many factors are lost in the translation.

[arturohernandez]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCd1E7taZh8

Another stellar example of the versatility of the one hand backhand when it comes to playing defence and transitional offence. Kygios actually shows up to play when Roger Federer is on the other side of the net. Talk about match of the day...this may well have been the match of the year. The action on the court was a close and as intense as you can hope to see. I remember how tense the situations were. What nerves the players showed under the circumstances. Roger eeks this one out by the narrowist of margins. The serving is really stellar. The rest of it...speaks for itself. But as for the slice backhand...watch Federer as he parrys and thrusts his way against an opponent who is hell bent on wreaking havoc. Kyrgios is powerful and at the same time devilishly clever. He's in your head. Pounding away at the serve. Intimidation. But Roger just keeps whittling away. Just trying to "be there" when it is going to be decided. He managed and his relief and his satisfaction are etched all over his face when it is over. Would have loved to see the handshake, but what do you expect? It is the condensed version. A good one too.

Ah yes! The Fed renaissance with an apples to apples racket he shows that everyone had been bothering him with a 10 sq inch advantage. Suddenly, the deficient backhand did not look so deficient anymore. With a meager 2 sq inch difference he was able to handle everything players could throw at him. He was in full flight on his way back from injury.

And below is a point in all its glory, just as you imagined it. Federer plays chess on the tennis court. Uses the slice to fend off Kyrgios's offense. Then in a blink of an eye Fed turns the table by flipping to topspin which must have pushed Kyrgios back deeper behind the baseline. From their Fed uses a combination of forehand and backhands until he wrong foots Kyrgios who has to guard against a deep cross court backhand and a short piercing cross court slice. The backhand winner down the line is setup by Fed's ability to make Kyrgios guard a much larger area on the court.

In the backhand thread, I was stuck with Wawrinka having the best backhand. I still think Stan is the model for withstanding the modern baseline basher that will just bludgeon you. In his prime, his backhand stood toe to toe with a two hander and out two handed everyone with his one hander. That being said we can help but admire Fed for his ability to get his opponent to play the entire court using his own backhand. As I said there, I would be happy to have any of these two.

On Instagram, I keep getting IW Fed highlights. This match shows us why!

https://youtu.be/VCd1E7taZh8?t=231

[don_budge]

Slice backhands have a very large dispersion of executable variations. Learn to hit the medium high ball at various speeds ranging from medium pace to the soft side of soft, five to ten feet over the net and landing as close to the baseline as possible. Here is a great reset ball. Roger was using this tactic much more later in his career and it was so effective. Even on serve returns. If you get that ball over on the backhand side...once again it is sort of strange that it is difficult for the opponent to really drive such a ball. Taking the air out of the ball. Most championships are won with great defense. Tennis is no different and the slice backhand is an excellent defensive tool. The game is played constantly in transition...transition from offence to defense and vice versa. Having the slice backhand in all of its variations is a great transitional tool. A must have in the classic game. The slice can range from extreme defence to even tactical offence.

The thing that makes Roger Federer so unique is his seemless transition from defense to offence. Actually Djokovic is the master of this as well on the two hand backhand side of the game. It is imperative to keep the ball in play...particularly at the level your daughter is playing at now and buying time and keeping the point going while neutralizing is a very important tactic. Once a player at her level becomes very effective at this ploy then it the time to start on being able to drive that backhand as well. It sounds like it is getting interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCd1E7taZh8

Another stellar example of the versatility of the one hand backhand when it comes to playing defence and transitional offence. Kygios actually shows up to play when Roger Federer is on the other side of the net. Talk about match of the day...this may well have been the match of the year. The action on the court was a close and as intense as you can hope to see. I remember how tense the situations were. What nerves the players showed under the circumstances. Roger eeks this one out by the narrowist of margins. The serving is really stellar. The rest of it...speaks for itself. But as for the slice backhand...watch Federer as he parrys and thrusts his way against an opponent who is hell bent on wreaking havoc. Kyrgios is powerful and at the same time devilishly clever. He's in your head. Pounding away at the serve. Intimidation. But Roger just keeps whittling away. Just trying to "be there" when it is going to be decided. He managed and his relief and his satisfaction are etched all over his face when it is over. Would have loved to see the handshake, but what do you expect? It is the condensed version. A good one too.

[don_budge]

Why don't more people see that there is another way? Because they don't understand how to play the game. Good work on the "making the ball lie down" in the grey area of the court. Fool around with the landing zone relative to the sideline as well. This area of the court is often the achilles heel of the two hand backhand and it begs to be exploited. Once again, it is Roger Federer as "The Living Proof" as it seems that only he was aware of this tactic. Tactically if this is used in a Federer versus Djokovic example...Djokovic would have limited tactical responses and much of it is dictated by the height of the net. It would be pretty difficult to be aggressive going down the line over the high part of the net into the Federer forehand. So the response may just be a slice back to the Federer backhand then advantage Federer as Djokovic will now be playing Federer's game. Also if Federer brings Djokovic into this "no man's land" then Djokovic must retreat and he leaves his deep forehand corner vulnerable and even the backhand as well, particularly if he dares to go down the line to the Federer forehand. So much for anyone seeing that there is another way.

Slice backhands have a very large dispersion of executable variations. Learn to hit the medium high ball at various speeds ranging from medium pace to the soft side of soft, five to ten feet over the net and landing as close to the baseline as possible. Here is a great reset ball. Roger was using this tactic much more later in his career and it was so effective. Even on serve returns. If you get that ball over on the backhand side...once again it is sort of strange that it is difficult for the opponent to really drive such a ball. Taking the air out of the ball. Most championships are won with great defense. Tennis is no different and the slice backhand is an excellent defensive tool. The game is played constantly in transition...transition from offence to defense and vice versa. Having the slice backhand in all of its variations is a great transitional tool. A must have in the classic game. The slice can range from extreme defence to even tactical offence.

The thing that makes Roger Federer so unique is his seemless transition from defense to offence. Actually Djokovic is the master of this as well on the two hand backhand side of the game. It is imperative to keep the ball in play...particularly at the level your daughter is playing at now and buying time and keeping the point going while neutralizing is a very important tactic. Once a player at her level becomes very effective at this ploy then it the time to start on being able to drive that backhand as well. It sounds like it is getting interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLLBk2QaCu0

Tremendous match...classic confrontation between the "classic" one hand backhand game versus the modern two hand backhand game. The judicious use of the slice is absolutely mesmerizing. The clever defence coupled with the ability to drive the backhand. Neither player had their "A" game but they were both parrying and thrusting trying to find a way to win. Probing and nicking at the other.

Federer at 36 is feeling the pull back to earth. Gravity in his legs. Novak at 30 years old is not even thinking about that...yet. He is now. He is 36. The shoe is on the other foot. Roger is trying to drag Novak down with the slice. Cleverly placing the ball in a nether region where it is just between the point where Novak can run around his backhand to where he has to take it on his backhand. I always felt there were spots on the court where the two handed backhand could be handcuffed a bit. You see it here. How many times is Novak forced to play it "safe"? In the end it appeared that Novak just had too much in the legs. Federer sort of ran out of gas in the third set tie-break.

But never mind the end result. Here is the tactics to use with the slice. But as jeffreycounts pointed out...driving the backhand is a big part of the effectiveness of the slice. The slice alone is not going to get the job done at a certain level.