Interactive Forum April 2023: Aryna Sabalenka Serve

[jimlosaltos]

Coaching a sport like tennis or golf is a truly unique proposition. Part physics and part metaphysics. Psychological. Philosophical. Spiritual to the point of being almost religious. Mechanical. There are many doctors in the field and only one Dr. House. There is a reason for that.

Hugh Laurie's Dr. House would do a "Differential Diagnosis" on Saby's serve <g>

Is it nerves, technique, or too aggressive second serving?

When confronted with symptoms all over the map, House would tell his team to fake looking for Lupus "It has so many symptoms, we can test for everything."

[jimlosaltos]

To all of your collective credit...you do see that this motion is not "fluid". The eye doesn't lie. But it is only that the brain does not know what to make of it. But to me it is a very simple thing. But then I always reduce things to the LCD (Lowest Common Denominator). This motion is designed for failure and will have great difficulty maintaining any semblance of consistency. On the other hand there is the perfect motion. Much like the golfers this weekend at the Masters in Augusta. Perfect setup. Perfect backswing. Perfect tempo in the transition from backswing to forwards swing.

Great context. In the real world, dealing with a tremendously successful pro player that is making Million$ and winning 'Slams NOW - what does one do? Way beyond my pay grade, but I'm curious if anyone has ideas to share?

Remember that Federer, faced with input from Paul Annacone and the rest of his team that he needed to change to larger racket, resisted for years -- not wanting to upset what worked so well. And that was a tiny change compared to what this thread proposes. Other ATP pros are reluctant to simply change strings or even tennis shoes, for fear of disrupting their momentum. {Fed changed to the RF97 and beat Rafa 7 out of 8 after that.}

What we're positing in the abstract would be an enormous change that could disrupt her career -- risking losing a season while adjusting at a minimum.

What would anyone tell her to get from where she is -- with the fourth best service in women's pro tennis despite spots with double faults -- to a better place?

Should she "pull off the bandages", or make incremental changes? Where to start?

[tenniscoach1]

”I tend to agree with don_budge … As my late father would often say, and something I also say to me students: ""Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy"

[jimlosaltos]

[QUOTE=stotty;n100355]

I am re-wiring the serve of a good level girl at the moment and have gone back the step one: Platform stance and probation. It's working and she and I will certainly get there. She believes and I believe. We can't fail so long as do my job right.

I have come to the realisation that back to square one...back to the very basics is the only way to do it. Once serves are in a mess you have to start over.
/QUOTE]

Sounds exciting & difficult. Good luck!

[doctorhl]

Great context. In the real world, dealing with a tremendously successful pro player that is making Million$ and winning 'Slams NOW - what does one do? Way beyond my pay grade, but I'm curious if anyone has ideas to share?

Remember that Federer, faced with input from Paul Annacone and the rest of his team that he needed to change to larger racket, resisted for years -- not wanting to upset what worked so well. And that was a tiny change compared to what this thread proposes. Other ATP pros are reluctant to simply change strings or even tennis shoes, for fear of disrupting their momentum. {Fed changed to the RF97 and beat Rafa 7 out of 8 after that.}

What we're positing in the abstract would be an enormous change that could disrupt her career -- risking losing a season while adjusting at a minimum.

What would anyone tell her to get from where she is -- with the fourth best service in women's pro tennis despite spots with double faults -- to a better place?

Should she "pull off the bandages", or make incremental changes? Where to start?

Jim: I have the same questions!! What are the differences between developmental coaching and tour coaching? Stotty and others have alluded to the difference in different threads , but I don't think it has been specifically discussed. Recognizing and implementing that transition must be pretty tough for both coaches and players. I sometimes wonder if the tour coach, even if it they have the knowledge base, is always the best to person to intervene for technique changes that have a lot at stake financially and affect psychological self worth.

[jimlosaltos]

Jim: I have the same questions!! What are the differences between developmental coaching and tour coaching? Stotty and others have alluded to the difference in different threads , but I don't think it has been specifically discussed. Recognizing and implementing that transition must be pretty tough for both coaches and players. I sometimes wonder if the tour coach, even if it they have the knowledge base, is always the best to person to intervene for technique changes that have a lot at stake financially and affect psychological self worth.

I'm trying to think of examples of successful pro players that changed their strokes significantly after being highly ranked, with good results.

Marin Cilic, under Goran Ivanišević, is the best I can come up with. The "Serve Whisperer" got Cilic to take a lot of the back arch and kick out of his serve and as a result Cilic blitzkrieged his way through a good field to a US Open title. More subtlety, Goran has tinkered with and improved Djokovic's serve, successfully compensating for the decline in the Serb's backhand dominance.

Beyond that ... Sinner modified his serve under Cahill, but he's 22 and still "growing".

Henin's coach Rodriguez tried to substantially change Li Nah's strokes late in her career, with negligible return.

There are probably more and/or better examples but I can't think of them.

[stroke]

Henins forehand probably the most successful overhaul ever at that level. Mannarino forehand probably second. Cilic did tweak his serve, rather than overhaul it to me. Kind of similar to Ruud, simply lowering the toss to quicken up the motion.

[stotty]

I think there are cases on the tour - perhaps not too many - where you might, as a coach and player, take a risk and rewire a player's serve completely. In the men's game Kei Nishikori comes to mind. Now there is a player with unbelievable timing and ball striking skills in the groundshot department, only to be let down all too often by passive serving. You just feel if Kei could have got better ISR and a bit more pop on his serve it would have made a considerable difference. It might have been worth a shot at making significant alterations to his serve despite his tour success.

In the women's game there are countless examples where, as coach, you might want to consider taking the player out of the game for 3 to 6 and starting over. A player such as Errani springs to mind.

Back in the classic era players took time out to improve their strokes. Pancho Gonzales took time out to revamp his backhand because he knew he was about to reach an impasse against Lew Hoad if he didn't. Now that's thinking bigger...long term...the wider picture.

[jimlosaltos]

Henins forehand probably the most successful overhaul ever at that level. Mannarino forehand probably second. Cilic did tweak his serve, rather than overhaul it to me. Kind of similar to Ruud, simply lowering the toss to quicken up the motion.

Ah, Hennin. I forgot how she changed. Good one. Don't recall how she was doing earlier.

Yes, Mannarino completely changed after his wrist injury. I wasn't thinking of him in the category of a winning player that changed, but he certainly made lemonade out of lemons after his wrist.

My (admittedly fuzzy) recollection of Cilic is that he hit nothing but heavy kick before Goran, who helped him move his toss a good deal to his right along the baseline and get more MPHs vs RPMs. is that wrong? Reverted a bit later in his career, perhaps?

[jimlosaltos]

I think there are cases on the tour - perhaps not too many - where you might, as a coach and player, take a risk and rewire a player's serve completely. In the men's game Kei Nishikori comes to mind. Now there is a player with unbelievable timing and ball striking skills in the groundshot department, only to be let down all too often by passive serving. You just feel if Kei could have got better ISR and a bit more pop on his serve it would have made a considerable difference. It might have been worth a shot at making significant alterations to his serve despite his tour success.

In the women's game there are countless examples where, as coach, you might want to consider taking the player out of the game for 3 to 6 and starting over. A player such as Errani springs to mind.

Back in the classic era players took time out to improve their strokes. Pancho Gonzales took time out to revamp his backhand because he knew he was about to reach an impasse against Lew Hoad if he didn't. Now that's thinking bigger...long term...the wider picture.

Pancho ! Didn't know that.

Hard to take time off now when there is so much money to be made and careers can be so short.

I vaguely recall a rumor that Borg took 8 weeks off to work on his slice serve for Wimbledon. Can't recall if he changed much or whether it worked.

[stotty]

Pancho ! Didn't know that.

Hard to take time off now when there is so much money to be made and careers can be so short.

I vaguely recall a rumor that Borg took 8 weeks off to work on his slice serve for Wimbledon. Can't recall if he changed much or whether it worked.

True. Borg took time out to improve his serve and also his forecourt game. His serve, until that point, had been mostly just putting the ball in play. But his motion was pretty good and it was just of question of beefing it up and using more spin. His serve got bigger throughout his short career. By the end of his career he was at time hitting serves reputedly around 120 mph. But the foundation was always there to start with.

A player like Nishikori had already earned plenty of money at a young age and probably should have addressed his serve. I mean how much money does a man need?! The trouble with the world today is some folks just don't seem to know when enough is enough. Nishikori got to number four in the world and never won a slam. I wonder if sacrificing some time on the tour to develop a better serve might have increased the silverware his trophy cabinet.

I like Ferrero's comment about Alcaraz....that Alcaraz thinks big. Nishikori could have done with thinking bigger and seeing the wider picture.

[jimlosaltos]

True. Borg took time out to improve his serve and also his forecourt game. His serve, until that point, had been mostly just putting the ball in play. But his motion was pretty good and it was just of question of beefing it up and using more spin. His serve got bigger throughout his short career. By the end of his career he was at time hitting serves reputedly around 120 mph. But the foundation was always there to start with.

A player like Nishikori had already earned plenty of money at a young age and probably should have addressed his serve. I mean how much money does a man need?! The trouble with the world today is some folks just don't seem to know when enough is enough. Nishikori got to number four in the world and never won a slam. I wonder if sacrificing some time on the tour to develop a better serve might have increased the silverware his trophy cabinet.

I like Ferrero's comment about Alcaraz....that Alcaraz thinks big. Nishikori could have done with thinking bigger and seeing the wider picture.

Reminded me of this - Kei vs Delpo from 2009, two players sadly missed. Very good, yet quite different (And, back to the topic, neither had much ISR but Delpo could still hit 135 mph).

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[stotty]

Reminded me of this - Kei vs Delpo from 2009, two players sadly missed. Very good, yet quite different (And, back to the topic, neither had much ISR but Delpo could still hit 135 mph).

Murray doesn't have much ISR either but can still belt a first serve down at 130mph...second serve is his issue. But ISR isn't the only problem Kei has.

It's worth noting that even high level players seem to have trouble rectifying ISR issues later down the line as older players. I mean ISR is no secret anymore and just about every coach knows what it is and what to look for. Learning these things very early in a player's development would seem to be absolutely key.

[tenniscoach1]

True. Borg took time out to improve his serve and also his forecourt game. His serve, until that point, had been mostly just putting the ball in play. But his motion was pretty good and it was just of question of beefing it up and using more spin. His serve got bigger throughout his short career. By the end of his career he was at time hitting serves reputedly around 120 mph. But the foundation was always there to start with.

A player like Nishikori had already earned plenty of money at a young age and probably should have addressed his serve. I mean how much money does a man need?! The trouble with the world today is some folks just don't seem to know when enough is enough. Nishikori got to number four in the world and never won a slam. I wonder if sacrificing some time on the tour to develop a better serve might have increased the silverware his trophy cabinet.

I like Ferrero's comment about Alcaraz....that Alcaraz thinks big. Nishikori could have done with thinking bigger and seeing the wider picture.

The story of Nishikori is a testament to the power of the human spirit. His rise to the upper echelon of the tennis world was no accident, but the result of an unrelenting pursuit of excellence, top-notch science, coaches, and mental intelligence. But let's face it, certain genetic factors like grip strength, fast-twitch muscle fibers, double joints, raw size and freakish rotator cuffs gives one a leg up and makes project-able/high potential/durable athletes that are able to continually improvement over a long period of time.

[jimlosaltos]

The story of Nishikori is a testament to the power of the human spirit. His rise to the upper echelon of the tennis world was no accident, but the result of an unrelenting pursuit of excellence, top-notch science, coaches, and mental intelligence. But let's face it, certain genetic factors like grip strength, fast-twitch muscle fibers, double joints, raw size and freakish rotator cuffs gives one a leg up and makes project-able/high potential/durable athletes that are able to continually improvement over a long period of time.

True! Also helps to be backed by the billionaire co-founder of Sony, Akio Morita.