LH Female Kick 2nd Serve

[tammboy101]

Hi forumites,

I noticed while watching female tennis that the LH female kick serve is less advantageous than the male version. Females tend to hit the 2nd serve slower and therefore the kick is less pronounced. Rather than push the opponent deeper, the serve can kick up quite nicely onto the RH forehand allowing them an aggressive return.

Has anyone noticed something similar and can this be quantified statistically? For example, do LH female players tend to use slice more than kick for 2nd serve? Do LH female players use kick less than male players for the 2nd serve?

[stotty]

I don’t watch too much WTA these days, but when I do I haven’t noticed any female players who ‘kick’ the ball in well. A left-hander’s kick serve to a righty - if done well - can be very effective. It’s not something right-handed players (male or female) are as used to as right-handed players are far more prominent. I personally find a lefty’s kick serve into my forehand really awkward to deal with. But as you say, a kick serve needs to be done well otherwise it’s just a ball that sits up to be hit.

[seano]

Tammboy101, My first thought with your question was a video I saw, back in the day, from Pat Dougherty about one of his female students left-handed "sick kick"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds6CZ4qCXD4

[jimlosaltos]

I don’t watch too much WTA these days, but when I do I haven’t noticed any female players who ‘kick’ the ball in well. A left-hander’s kick serve to a righty - if done well - can be very effective. It’s not something right-handed players (male or female) are as used to as right-handed players are far more prominent. I personally find a lefty’s kick serve into my forehand really awkward to deal with. But as you say, a kick serve needs to be done well otherwise it’s just a ball that sits up to be hit.

Sam Stosur used to have a heavy kick, as well as topspin on her forehand. One reason she had some big victories over Serena.

Commentators credited in part her shoulder development as unique on WTA.

Don't shoot the messenger. Just relating

[don_budge]

Hi forumites,
I noticed while watching female tennis that the LH female kick serve is less advantageous than the male version. Females tend to hit the 2nd serve slower and therefore the kick is less pronounced. Rather than push the opponent deeper, the serve can kick up quite nicely onto the RH forehand allowing them an aggressive return.

Has anyone noticed something similar and can this be quantified statistically? For example, do LH female players tend to use slice more than kick for 2nd serve? Do LH female players use kick less than male players for the 2nd serve?

Forumites? Such a familiar term for a first time poster. Leads me to wonder...are you for real?

Left hand serving...male or female? Aren't they equal? Or is that yesterday's news. Anyways...this is right up my alley. Being a left handed serve with a perfect motion forty and fifty years ago. Frictionless and built upon the sage advice of Don Budge himself.

You know...serving tactics seem to be somewhat overlooked these days. The mantra appears to be...fast and faster. Hard and harder. Overlooking key element of control...spin and placement. What is power? Control is power. What is control? The three elements of control are speed, spin and placement. Modern tennis is all about speed. All about mph and rpm. A sad state of affairs.

It has been so long since I was relevant as a player but I can try to dig up a few interesting notes regarding the left hand serving tactics. First of all...when I was serving with a wooden racquet it seems to me that I was able to spin the ball so much more effectively. Perhaps because the bigger heads are more conducive to hitting harder the spin doesn't take so well. Maybe it was the strings way back then. But armed with a Jack Kramer Pro Staff strung with gut, I was able to produce to kick the ball so outrageously high and away from a right handed player that attacking the forehand was a real option.

This post got me thinking about the different serving options I had with a superb motion and the ability to hit the American twist, the standard overspin, the slice and the flat serve. If you calculate the number of options there are with these four options...it is quite a few. For the left handed American twist in the deuce court versus a right handed player...there is the kick to the forehand. Even on this option there are two varieties. First, one option for the kick wide is to spin the ball without as much speed and land the ball shorter in the court in order to pull your opponent farther off the court. The second option would be to aim for the corner and try to use a combination with more speed and even more spin to try and overpower your opponent while taking him out of the court. Another variation of the placement of this delivery is to kick the ball into the backhand. I remember finding this to be a very effective way of changing up the placement to keep the opponet off balance and also more effective against the two handed backhand. I always felt that one way to neutralize the two handed backhand was to jam it into the body. Going up the tee with the harder variety of kick is always an option. In the deuce court the same sort of varieties can be used with the same amount of effectiveness. The kick up the middle to the forehand is a good way to stretch the opponent. The same combinations as in the deuce court to the backhand are effective variety of serve also. Subtle difference in placement help to keep the opponent off balance. Keep in mind that conditions play a huge factor when considering which variety of kick to use. Often the sun plays a role and it may be easier to toss the ball behind you to keep the sun from hindering your ability to see the ball. Wind is a HUGE factor. When serving with the wind the kick is going to be exponentially higher...particularly with a wind that is blowing a bit sidelong away from your opponent. I remember chasing them into the next court with the right combination of wind and court surface.

As you can see this turns into a very long story and since I am always one to keep my posts brief and informative...it would be a long discussion when taking every single serve variety into consideration. But just one more point here. Take the slice serve into consideration. If you have the good slice down the tee in the deuce court...just imagine the ways you can set your opponent up with just these two spins. The slice up the tee takes your opponent and moves him way to his left and if he isn't prepared for this delivery it is an ace or an unplayable. A good chance of a weak return. If the opponent has to guard against the serve that takes him way off the court to his forehand...you have the means of controlling him with your variety of tactics. The slice is also used in the deuce court to handcuff him by serving into the forehand and jamming it into the body. I leave it to the reader to contemplate the serve tactics to the ad court...you can well imagine.

Aww, just one more thing. You thought I was going to keep this short, didn't you? Take into consideration the flat serve. The one going for the winner outright. For a left hander the most effective flat serve in the deuce court is out wide. So you are toggling with kicks and slices and then you are stairring down the barrel of the flat "cannonball". With this many varieties at your command you can get your opponent on a string and yank him around on your service game with your variety and command of the various combinations of spin, speed and placement...not always in the same order but using different emphasis of either element due to conditions or score.

So when evaluating a woman's command of the kick serve it would be useful to fully understand that her kick serve effectiveness might well depend on her command of the variety of other variances. I might ad that another factor in the number of combinations and permutations is where the server is standing on the baseline. By moving around from the center to upwards two meters towards either sideline now you have many more combinations. Particularily if you can serve the American twist, slice and cannonball with the same motion and the same ball toss. For instance you can line up showing wide out to the forehand and come down the tee with the slice or the cannonball. The combinations are virtually limitless and you are much better able to take advantage of conditions such as wind and sun.

Just a little primer...on service tactics for the left handed server, utilising the kick.

[don_budge]

Has anyone noticed something similar and can this be quantified statistically? For example, do LH female players tend to use slice more than kick for 2nd serve? Do LH female players use kick less than male players for the 2nd serve?

Interesting thought..."can this be quantified statistically?" Nowadays everything can be quantified. Absolutely everything. Just ask jimlosaltos or stotty. Than there is me. Little old don_budge. My response is why try to quantify something when it is purely qualitative? Listen...the answer to inferior American twist effectiveness in female serve is due to lack of physical prowess and equally important...very poor service mechanics. Service motions loaded with compensating moves. Full of friction. Not one redeeming motion on the tour. You have top players with double fauting issues.

All of this ability or inability begins and ends with the motion. The motion either enables the player to accomplish various deliveries and spins with optimal efficiency or it prevents them. You are limited in you options if your motion is not the perfect frictionless roller coaster greased to the gills slippery that I advocate.

That being said...let's assume that a player has an enhanced motion capable of hitting the various spins effectively. If you want to enhance the effectiveness of your American twist...work on getting all of the potential out of the other spins too. One depends on the other. The ability to pull the player in one direction allows the server to use variety to enhance the other one in the other direction. A left handed server who can pull the receiver way off the court in the ad court opens up big opportunities to hit the kick up the tee. Up the middle.

I actually love this post by tammboy101. The answer to the question is first in the motion itself. It isn't even a matter of male or female. It's a question of a motion that allows the player to hit all the spins, speeds and direction. All of my discussions about teaching the serve begin with building a motion that aims at pinpoint targets. Aiming...aiming...aiming. Fluid. Frictionless. If the motion is not predicated on this philosophy...good luck on developing a serve that can get the job done under pressure, nerves and conditions.

One of the most thought provoking posts in a long, long time. The forgotten art of the perfect service motion and the art of archery...I mean serving.