Interactive Forum: July 2008 History of the Windshield Wiper Forehand

[airforce1]

Maybe I need to learn more about the WW FH, but the Tilden vid shows a pretty flat swing, with the racket face actually opening slightly on and immediately after impact, before rolling over near extension. Can't see how that is a ww and not even sure it would have much TS with a swing plane that flat, but I'm open minded.

you guys over analyze things to death. tilden video for example...his so called windshield wiper is nothing but a flat swing with a little topspin action...the "wiper" is an effect. nothing more.

I actually agree w/you on this one Kent.

Glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought this, but I respect the point JY is making.

[John Yandell]

I'll have to disagree. There is a tendency in modern teaching to set up the older guys as straw men and knock them down.

In the old days, the forehand was hit closed stance. The finish was straight out in front etc, etc.

The point of these clips is to show that the swing shape variations have been around as long as tennis players. To me that's interesting.

[EricMatuszewski]

you guys over analyze things to death. tilden video for example...his so called windshield wiper is nothing but a flat swing with a little topspin action...the "wiper" is an effect. nothing more.

I actually agree w/you on this one Kent.

[uspta146749877]

Another reference for u

Thanks Julian,

This is kind of info for the avg level coach to get them up to speed.

I'm working on my doctorate in this type of stuff, so If you have some peer reviewed ground breaking research that would really be more up my alley.

Nice peace of work though for the avg coach to get something out of.

Another reference for u
Itf advanced coaches manual
julian mielniczuk

[uspta146749877]

."ITF Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis"

Thanks Julian,

This is kind of info for the avg level coach to get them up to speed.

I'm working on my doctorate in this type of stuff, so If you have some peer reviewed ground breaking research that would really be more up my alley.

Nice peace of work though for the avg coach to get something out of.

Hi,
articles quoted in
"ITF Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis"
maybe of interest.The book/manual is of interest by itself
regards,
julian

over analysis paralysis

you guys over analyze things to death. tilden video for example...his so called windshield wiper is nothing but a flat swing with a little topspin action...the "wiper" is an effect. nothing more.

[EricMatuszewski]

Thanks Julian,

This is kind of info for the avg level coach to get them up to speed.

I'm working on my doctorate in this type of stuff, so If you have some peer reviewed ground breaking research that would really be more up my alley.

Nice peace of work though for the avg coach to get something out of.

[uspta146749877]

From Julian

Another note on this,

On Higher balls, a tucked in elbow will cause the outgoing shot (presuming the player attempts to hit topspin) to actually be more of a sidespin.

I do agree that it's generally more stable to have the elbow closer to the ribs HOWEVER simple physics proves that the shorter the lever arm the lower the linear velocity.

So like so many other decisions in this wonderful sport, It's a trade off.

A small gift from your friend Julian
Please click

http://www.itfcoaching.com/elastic-energy-in-tennis/player.html

[bottle]

Federfuss or Ziegener?

The important thing is which name would be more appropriate, not whether I am being ignored.

For the record Satchel Paige's pitches were called Hesitation Pitch, Bat Dodger, Hurry-up Ball, Midnight Rider, Four-Day Creeper, Nothin', Bee Ball, Jump Ball, Trouble Ball, The Two-Hump Blooper, Long Tom, The Barber and Little Tom.

Compare the color of this with the blandness of the last couple of posts.

You may not think that blandness is the problem of American tennis discussion, but it's surely one of the problems.

I've always thought there was a direct relation between the sudden connections of expressive language and the sudden mental connections between different physical activities, even among tennis strokes, not to mention philosophical, political and ethical choice.

So, just as there is in nature a featherfoot, a kind of chicken with liquid scimitars flowing out of its ankles, there may be a new forehand waiting to be born, more curious than other fowl.

The eighties pro Valerie Ziegenfuss, in a great article she wrote for a book called "Tennis for Women" described some kind of gyro or eccentric inventor she met while touring in Texas.

I don't even know if he was a touring pro like her, a tennis instructor or tennis player and don't think it matters.

His theory was that the followthrough on a tennis forehand doesn't have anywhere to go except across the body, and he convinced Ms. Ziegenfuss to reverse the conventional order of body then arm.

As I confessed in my previous post, I believe as an educational tool coming from medieval times one should mimic great players whenever one has the chance, and I reported on some of my failures and successes in this regard (neglecting a year each on Sampras and Agassi with mediocre result).

The successes (a relative term of course) were Ziegenfuss and Federer.

The Ziegenfuss I developed involved a small, vertical, compact and very
round loop-- a lot of arm motion sequencing into body pivot from the shoulders only (I hope that's interesting-- it was to me).

And I was very impressed with the similarity between the Ziegenfuss followthrough and that of Ivan Lendl-- a funny little skunk tail barely to the left.

I started beating people I hadn't before. Forgive me for being blown away and more convinced than ever that mimicry was the way to go.

So okay, now my mimicry of Federer has led to a blended move of lift and both arms extended at about ninety degrees to each other.

From there the upper body can rotate the racket into position.

But particularly on an inside out forehand, the amateur is likely to pull the ball a bit left, possibly with more sidespin than he wants, too.

For the Federfuss, the featherfoot, or the Ziegener, simply reverse order and follow the same pattern created by 10,000 previous Federfores. When the two arms are about parallel let the body go from both legs and gut.

Since initial move for both strokes results in the same divergence of your two straight arms, you won't be bad in the deception department, but if someone starts to read you, you can reverse where you're hitting the shots in a fine dipsey-doodle.

Well, I hope I haven't been too preacherly, even though I think people should make discoveries every moment of every day.

[airforce1]

In my experience, the forehand works best when the abduction angle (this relates how far the elbow is from the ribs) remains fairly constant on the forward pull.

I've watched Ferrero a lot (He's one of my Favorite models on the backhand). He doesn't get as much abduction angle as some of the other players. If the angle changes any from on the way to the ball, it's not very much.

I really agree with this perspective.

[uspta146749877]

Abduction angle

In my experience, the forehand works best when the abduction angle (this relates how far the elbow is from the ribs) remains fairly constant on the forward pull.

I've watched Ferrero a lot (He's one of my Favorite models on the backhand). He doesn't get as much abduction angle as some of the other players. If the angle changes any from on the way to the ball, it's not very much.

I understand that a constant abduction angle implies more control.

[EricMatuszewski]

In my experience, the forehand works best when the abduction angle (this relates how far the elbow is from the ribs) remains fairly constant on the forward pull.

I've watched Ferrero a lot (He's one of my Favorite models on the backhand). He doesn't get as much abduction angle as some of the other players. If the angle changes any from on the way to the ball, it's not very much.

[uspta146749877]

Ebow position again

Another note on this,

On Higher balls, a tucked in elbow will cause the outgoing shot (presuming the player attempts to hit topspin) to actually be more of a sidespin.

I do agree that it's generally more stable to have the elbow closer to the ribs HOWEVER simple physics proves that the shorter the lever arm the lower the linear velocity.

So like so many other decisions in this wonderful sport, It's a trade off.

Eric,
some videos show that there are two phases:
1.an elbow is tucked in
2.next the elbow is tucked away

for example Ferraro
https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_play...arlos-ferrero/

Maybe I was deceived because it is ONLY rear view?
Thank you,
julian

[bottle]

We Want a Revolution-- Now! Now!! NOW-W-W!!!!!

Why shouldn't tennis players be taught to be shoppers among the great models available to them right from the beginning?

Suppose the beginner does enough research straight off to find whom he admires? His teacher them helps him emulate this model, to whom he is in a sense apprenticed until he picks someone else.

Maybe he or she will be lucky enough to pick a great model straight off good enough to stick with for life. The instructor then teaches him basics of the game in slantwise fashion rather than the usual mind-numbing list of generic do's and don'ts.

Of course tennis is changing and new best models are always coming along. Make the student imitate them like Jonas Bjorkman hitting a Roger Federer forehand.

Don't let him get away with not having used heavy western grips, semiwesterns, easterns and even continental topspin forehands.

Eventually, the student should take over, becoming his own teacher and hopefully a wild innovator for the rest of his life just like Bill Tilden. But the teaching pros needn't worry. There will always be work for those who can serve as intermediary between stroke archives and an actual tennis court.

So what are some of the new, more inspiriting tools needed for this approach?
Computers. Photography units-- gotta learn when and where the filmstrips deceive. Theater classes, particularly in imitation and improvisation.

Instead of ten players in a line waiting to hit the same volley, the ten could wait to hit the volley of their master or someone else's (someone who lives inside of their computer).

Eventually, the teacher could teach the student to rebel. Or better, the student would teach himself to do that.

People would actually enjoy a website such as this one even more than they currently do. They would like old tennis books, too, like Arthur Ashe and Billy Jean King, who would read EVERYTHING.

Any new exposure would have immediate pertinence to their game.

Personally speaking, I've tried to hit forehands like Vic Braden, Stan Smith, Ivan Lendl, Ellsworth Vines, Stacy Austin, Don Budge, Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Andre Gomez, Valerie Ziegenfuss and Roger Federer.

Many of these experiments lasted well over a year. The majority, however, produced shots worse than my own, which would be the forehand I was hitting after conventional instruction and five years experience.

Two were better however. Those would be the Ziegenfuss and the Federer although they could not be more different.

Isn't the big point here pretty simple? It is a self-destructive set of mind that says, after five years, "This is my forehand and I will never change it beyond a tweak here or there."

[EricMatuszewski]

Elbow in, Elbow out

Another note on this,

On Higher balls, a tucked in elbow will cause the outgoing shot (presuming the player attempts to hit topspin) to actually be more of a sidespin.

I do agree that it's generally more stable to have the elbow closer to the ribs HOWEVER simple physics proves that the shorter the lever arm the lower the linear velocity.

So like so many other decisions in this wonderful sport, It's a trade off.