Interactive Forum: July 2008 History of the Windshield Wiper Forehand

[EricMatuszewski]

Julian,

Getting a student to make adjustments in his or her technique is the most rewarding job a coach can take on because (for most students) a technique change can make the largest impact on a players ability to win and thus succeed in the game of tennis. (there are other psychological benefits for both the student and coach, but lemme stick to the basics).

Changing technique is also however one of the most challenging jobs a coach can take on as well.

This is because motor engrams are harder to revise than to originally install.

The player will tend to reflexively do it the "old" way for a long time even though he or she is trying to do the action in a new pattern.

It takes a highly motivated student to persevere through the approx 30 hours of failures before a new coordinated mov't begins to emerge.

Also, in that period of Failing repeatedly, if the student is playing competitively, loses will further discourage whatever change your trying to make.

My best advice here I think is to make sure you have a very strong repore with your student and that you've spent all the time to make sure they trust that you can make a good decision when it comes to technique. This takes a long time generally.

As far as whether I agree that the change would benefit most players, I'd say in general, yes. The exceptions being if the player was exceptionally short in stature or if there was some kind of anatomical abnormality.

As far as elbow close to ribs or elbow away from ribs, I like the old school elbow away from ribs but I realize that it takes a while for most players to be able to control the less stable "elbow away" style.

Best Wishes.
Eric

[uspta146749877]

tucked in elbow for power and stability

So my student lost in the round of 32 to a guy who was an inferior mover, not a very good server and didn't have much of a backhand.

But guess what he did have.

A Heavy forehand!

result: 6-0, 6-3 to the guy with the heavy forehand.

This was the best thing actually that could have happened as far as my students development. . .

I've only been working with this guy for a couple of weeks as a paid sparring partner.

But now it's turned into a technical trainer and project (give this kid a better forehand than he got beat with) relationship.

So after 2 days of work he's made an major turnaround on his forehand. Going from full Western with a high ear level ending to a semi-western with a beside the shoulder level ending.

The heaviness of his forehand has improved greatly (now his ball "jumps" when it hits the court) as has his first flight ball speed.

I'm including some jpegs to see before and afters

How does this relate to the Tilden, Gonzales footage?

I believe that this departure from "over the shoulder" finishing, creates a different quality ball which in some cases was advantageous with a heavy narrow wooden racket. The great players of the past no doubt figured this out, however were discouraged from doing this on every forehand because of the chance of mishitting and the premium on not loosing ball speed.

With the lower weight and wider stiffer rackets we have now it's no surprise that the "windsheild wiper" is so ubiquitous.

Check out the change my student made in 2 days!

With the blue shirt, was @ the U.S. Open (western grip and "wrap around neck" ending). On Saturday the 12th.

In the white shorts is three days later Tuesday the 15th.

Despite having played for 11 years and having spent probably around 50k on tennis training, no one had ever succeeded in changing this.

A photo of Marat is included to compare the new finish.

The ITF Avanced Coaches Manual
promotes tucked in elbow for power and stability for a semi-western based
forehand
For example
https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/andre-agassi/
Any comments?

[uspta146749877]

semi-open stance

I'd recommend trying to get a kid out of full western as soon as possible and over to a semi-western or semi-western/eastern.

Just as general advice.

Kids will tend to favor the western simply because it works easier on the avg ball they face (at or above head level).

Sorry the pics are not easy to download, maybe one of the tech guys can help. Aaron? You out there?

Would u teach a semi-open stance combined with a semi-western grip?
I hope my question makes sense
The "True Alignment" article is of some help but NOT a lot

[uspta146749877]

Thank you

You don't need a sound bite. Just read.

Robert re-publishes his belief on flatter grips so much that "use a flat grip" should be his middle name.

On a special note Pete Sampras talks a good deal about Robert in his new autobiography.

Good luck with your tennis.

Eric

Eric,
I have a lesson scheduled for Thursday this week to convert
a junior from a western grip to a semi-western.
A student is 12 year old.
I started coaching this particular student a month ago.
A western grip is a leftover from someone else.
If u can warn me about any traps/dangers I can meet I would really
appreciate it.I am a certified USPTA pro but a certification
did NOT help a lot on this particular subject
julian
PS
I read already an article in the book entitled "World-class tennis technique"
on forehands by Crespo and Higueras

[EricMatuszewski]

Yea that one should work

You don't need a sound bite. Just read.

Robert re-publishes his belief on flatter grips so much that "use a flat grip" should be his middle name.

On a special note Pete Sampras talks a good deal about Robert in his new autobiography.

Good luck with your tennis.

Eric

[uspta146749877]

A forehand aricle by RL

I can only speak to my experience that on average I see players are able to hit the ball with more velocity with a less western grip.

I've seen some exceptions of course, but on the avg, Semi=more air speed.

The other major disadvantages are:

Increased difficulty in transitioning to a volley grip.

Increased difficulty in handling low slices. I think Landsdorp speaks about this in one of his articles. look it up.

Do u mean
https://www.tennisplayer.net/article...dorp-forehand/ ?

[uspta146749877]

An interview with RL

I'd recommend trying to get a kid out of full western as soon as possible and over to a semi-western or semi-western/eastern.

Just as general advice.

Kids will tend to favor the western simply because it works easier on the avg ball they face (at or above head level).

Sorry the pics are not easy to download, maybe one of the tech guys can help. Aaron? You out there?

I have problems with a voice of an interview with
RL
in
https://www.tennisplayer.net/article...dorp-forehand/

Any help?

[EricMatuszewski]

I can only speak to my experience that on average I see players are able to hit the ball with more velocity with a less western grip.

I've seen some exceptions of course, but on the avg, Semi=more air speed.

The other major disadvantages are:

Increased difficulty in transitioning to a volley grip.

Increased difficulty in handling low slices. I think Landsdorp speaks about this in one of his articles. look it up.

[uspta146749877]

Scientic base?

I'd recommend trying to get a kid out of full western as soon as possible and over to a semi-western or semi-western/eastern.

Just as general advice.

Kids will tend to favor the western simply because it works easier on the avg ball they face (at or above head level).

Sorry the pics are not easy to download, maybe one of the tech guys can help. Aaron? You out there?

Is any good justification for a switch?
I meant scientific in the ttle ( I cannot fix it)
Is a ball faster for a semi-western? Your previous post implied that.
I know coaches who prefer western over semi-western

[EricMatuszewski]

I'd recommend trying to get a kid out of full western as soon as possible and over to a semi-western or semi-western/eastern.

Just as general advice.

Kids will tend to favor the western simply because it works easier on the avg ball they face (at or above head level).

Sorry the pics are not easy to download, maybe one of the tech guys can help. Aaron? You out there?

[uspta146749877]

Western vs semi-western

So my student lost in the round of 32 to a guy who was an inferior mover, not a very good server and didn't have much of a backhand.

But guess what he did have.

A Heavy forehand!

result: 6-0, 6-3 to the guy with the heavy forehand.

This was the best thing actually that could have happened as far as my students development. . .

I've only been working with this guy for a couple of weeks as a paid sparring partner.

But now it's turned into a technical trainer and project (give this kid a better forehand than he got beat with) relationship.

So after 2 days of work he's made an major turnaround on his forehand. Going from full Western with a high ear level ending to a semi-western with a beside the shoulder level ending.

The heaviness of his forehand has improved greatly (now his ball "jumps" when it hits the court) as has his first flight ball speed.

I'm including some jpegs to see before and afters

How does this relate to the Tilden, Gonzales footage?

I believe that this departure from "over the shoulder" finishing, creates a different quality ball which in some cases was advantageous with a heavy narrow wooden racket. The great players of the past no doubt figured this out, however were discouraged from doing this on every forehand because of the chance of mishitting and the premium on not loosing ball speed.

With the lower weight and wider stiffer rackets we have now it's no surprise that the "windsheild wiper" is so ubiquitous.

Check out the change my student made in 2 days!

With the blue shirt, was @ the U.S. Open (western grip and "wrap around neck" ending). On Saturday the 12th.

In the white shorts is three days later Tuesday the 15th.

Despite having played for 11 years and having spent probably around 50k on tennis training, no one had ever succeeded in changing this.

A photo of Marat is included to compare the new finish.

I am looking for a good article at tennisplayer comparing western to semi western forehand as a choice for a 12 year old junior

[uspta146749877]

I cannot see videos

So my student lost in the round of 32 to a guy who was an inferior mover, not a very good server and didn't have much of a backhand.

But guess what he did have.

A Heavy forehand!

result: 6-0, 6-3 to the guy with the heavy forehand.

This was the best thing actually that could have happened as far as my students development. . .

I've only been working with this guy for a couple of weeks as a paid sparring partner.

But now it's turned into a technical trainer and project (give this kid a better forehand than he got beat with) relationship.

So after 2 days of work he's made an major turnaround on his forehand. Going from full Western with a high ear level ending to a semi-western with a beside the shoulder level ending.

The heaviness of his forehand has improved greatly (now his ball "jumps" when it hits the court) as has his first flight ball speed.

I'm including some jpegs to see before and afters

How does this relate to the Tilden, Gonzales footage?

I believe that this departure from "over the shoulder" finishing, creates a different quality ball which in some cases was advantageous with a heavy narrow wooden racket. The great players of the past no doubt figured this out, however were discouraged from doing this on every forehand because of the chance of mishitting and the premium on not loosing ball speed.

With the lower weight and wider stiffer rackets we have now it's no surprise that the "windsheild wiper" is so ubiquitous.

Check out the change my student made in 2 days!

With the blue shirt, was @ the U.S. Open (western grip and "wrap around neck" ending). On Saturday the 12th.

In the white shorts is three days later Tuesday the 15th.

Despite having played for 11 years and having spent probably around 50k on tennis training, no one had ever succeeded in changing this.

A photo of Marat is included to compare the new finish.

Trying to see the last video I got the message.Can someone help?
I know that there is a solution to load a jpeg to my laptop
but I would prefer to avoid it
------>
uspta146749877, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

[EricMatuszewski]

So my student lost in the round of 32 to a guy who was an inferior mover, not a very good server and didn't have much of a backhand.

But guess what he did have.

A Heavy forehand!

result: 6-0, 6-3 to the guy with the heavy forehand.

This was the best thing actually that could have happened as far as my students development. . .

I've only been working with this guy for a couple of weeks as a paid sparring partner.

But now it's turned into a technical trainer and project (give this kid a better forehand than he got beat with) relationship.

So after 2 days of work he's made an major turnaround on his forehand. Going from full Western with a high ear level ending to a semi-western with a beside the shoulder level ending.

The heaviness of his forehand has improved greatly (now his ball "jumps" when it hits the court) as has his first flight ball speed.

I'm including some jpegs to see before and afters

How does this relate to the Tilden, Gonzales footage?

I believe that this departure from "over the shoulder" finishing, creates a different quality ball which in some cases was advantageous with a heavy narrow wooden racket. The great players of the past no doubt figured this out, however were discouraged from doing this on every forehand because of the chance of mishitting and the premium on not loosing ball speed.

With the lower weight and wider stiffer rackets we have now it's no surprise that the "windsheild wiper" is so ubiquitous.

Check out the change my student made in 2 days!

With the blue shirt, was @ the U.S. Open (western grip and "wrap around neck" ending). On Saturday the 12th.

In the white shorts is three days later Tuesday the 15th.

Despite having played for 11 years and having spent probably around 50k on tennis training, no one had ever succeeded in changing this.

A photo of Marat is included to compare the new finish.

[airforce1]

One difference is the Tilden footage is probably 125 frames/sec (old movie film) so you can't compare exactly. 1 Fed frame equals 4 Tilden frames.

My point isn't who has the greatest windshield wiper, or how fast or how much spin. One is a stretch forehand, one is a return, and one is an inside groundstroke--you can't evaluate those issues on one ball.

My point is that even in the days of different racket technology, great players used the same swing shapes we think of as "modern" and most likely for the same purposes.

Once again, John, Thanks for your patience.

[John Yandell]

One difference is the Tilden footage is probably 125 frames/sec (old movie film) so you can't compare exactly. 1 Fed frame equals 4 Tilden frames.

My point isn't who has the greatest windshield wiper, or how fast or how much spin. One is a stretch forehand, one is a return, and one is an inside groundstroke--you can't evaluate those issues on one ball.

My point is that even in the days of different racket technology, great players used the same swing shapes we think of as "modern" and most likely for the same purposes.