Dog Pat Part 2

[10splayer]

"oliensis
The Backswing & Game-Based Learning
First of all, after seeing the kid's videos, I still wonder what's so terrible about the backswing. The only thing I see is that maybe it's a little bit complex. Maybe try simplifying the OPPOSITE way from what you think you need to do."


Closing the racket face sooner is exactly what I tried to do in the 'Closed start' clip. At the beginning of the backswing you'll notice the face is more closed than in the original clip. I thought the same as you, that I might get a reverse effect.

A few of you have said, "What's so wrong with the swing, it looks ok". Actually, in practise the shot works fine, but in a match, under tension, he gets scared to hit it, and when he does he's always late.

This was I think 10splayer main concern, and he's right. The kid can't get the shot out in time when rushed or when he has an awkwardly placed ball to deal with. The movement is slightly complex under duress to be able to pull reliably

This isn't a long-term problem he's had since he started playing tennis. It just seemed to develop quickly when he was practising day in day out with friends. Trying to whip up low balls with topspin seems to be how it developed. Strange how something can get ingrained so quickly and become so hard to coach out!

BTW, if you saw his backhand you'd think I was a great coach. His backhand is a fail-safe, high-quality shot. The irony is I've hardly touched it. He has a naturally backhand that's just developed itself naturally as time's gone on. Of course, when people site what a good shot it is I beam with pride and take full responsibility.

Correct, and predictably, I like the change. With a stronger grip, the racquet is going to want to close somewhat . In my mind, when, and to what degree, the racquet face closes are important things to note.

As I mentioned in the first thread, your student had the racquet more or less on edge at the top of the backswing, and then continued to close the face all the way through the drop. In other words, he "closed the racquet late" in the backswing. I've found that this can, interfere with the timely set of the hitting arm structure and a quick, almost violent, transition from downswing to foreward swing. Neither of which are good for defense, adjusting, and dealing with the dynamic nature of the game. This was my inquiry/concern.

Admittedly, I'm a bit of simpleton when it comes to backswings. I like someone like Blake as a model. Essentially, as he steps up to the top of the backswing, he closes the racquet face, and then just passively lays it down from there. This is what I stress with my kids. Set the angle of the raquet at the top of the backswing, and then don't screw with it as it drops. (a sooner as opposed to later sort of thing)

I've found this is to be a much, much, more responsive type of backswing. Affords them the ability to defend, adust, hit on the move, and meet their contact point requirements under duress. At least there in with a chance.

I think it's so important to get kids into backswings that allow them to produce shots, from anywhere on the court, under any situation. Closing the racquet face earlier as opposed to later, is simpler in my opinion.

tcuk

i asked about the high ball because if the kid is adjusting the height of his back swing like that on his own, then i think he has a very good kinetic understanding of how to use his body to get out of it what he wants. i consider his position for the high ball a good thing.

have you done any drills with him where you feed and he sets up to hit but doesn't swing and has to watch the ball go by with the ball in the "center" of his eyes and his eyes in the center of his head...aka following the ball with his head like federer, but watch it all the way back to the back fence. then progress on to him following it to where he looks for the ball just behind contact.

of course his contact has to be pulled back to a good spot for him where it's at the end of his extended swing and he's still balanced on contact.

i'd be curious to know how that drill with him would work.

oh, and do not let him look up to his target until after he hears the ball hit the other fence. head stays at contact point that whole time. then the next step is even more interesting....(teaser)

[tcuk]

Carrakent,

Yes the lunge was noted, and no it wasn't ideal. To get what I wanted I was encouraging him to brush up from beneath the height of the ball.

Re high-balls, he tends to fair much better with these. It's the one type of forehand that he hits well and with power so I'm not going to tinker with it just yet.

And yes, where those eyes are going God only knows!

I appreciate your time and observations, Carrakent. Thank you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K6Kt8S4cRM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFdO_PGowZg

Compare the above clips to G's slomo forehand, which is the orginal unmodified forehand. Link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_K5TSZlNFI

tcuk, are you okay with how way out in front of his body he's lunging for contact on the first video here? that seems to take his good set up and body position totally out of the contact point that will help him hit his targets and produce consistent shots.

did you ask him to raise the point of his backswing on the high balls?

and, he's still not even remotely keeping the ball "in the center of his eyes" which further breaks down the stroke from the point of just after the forward swing begins until he's made contact. tons of power and control lost by not finishing the head movement to contact point.

[tcuk]

Oliensis, I agree entirely about his footwork after shots. The boy is an exceptional mover and kind of 'floats'. He needs to capitalize on this.

As for moving quicker and better and this 'affecting his state of mind from defensive to offensive'. I hadn't considered this, thank you. I'll put this into practise. The kid has become frightened to hit forehands and needs to change his mindset.

[oliensis]

Well, great minds...

Maybe an answer is for him to prepare sooner, and to rip his forehands...to stay aggressive.

One thing I noticed in the video is that his footwork is sort of lazy AFTER he hits the shot. Maybe if he were to be aggressive about RECOVERY footwork that would translate into earlier, aggressvie footwork on forehand preparation, and would change his mindset from defensive to offensive.

Have him watch videos of Federer AFTER he hits the ball. His footwork is almost better then than as he prepares to hit. And it's hard to get scared to hit a shot when your footwork has been determined and offensive while the ball is on the other side of the net.

I saw Zabeleta at the US Open once, and he let out an aggressvie exhale every time the other guy hit the ball. It punctuated his (Z's) split step, the first move and the transition from recovery to preparation. When I get back on my heels and late, it's a helpful cue for changing attitude/footwork.

Food for thought, anyway.

Closing the racket face sooner is exactly what I tried to do in the 'Closed start' clip. At the beginning of the backswing you'll notice the face is more closed than in the original clip. I thought the same as you, that I might get a reverse effect.

A few of you have said, "What's so wrong with the swing, it looks ok". Actually, in practise the shot works fine, but in a match, under tension, he gets scared to hit it, and when he does he's always late.

[tcuk]

"oliensis
The Backswing & Game-Based Learning
First of all, after seeing the kid's videos, I still wonder what's so terrible about the backswing. The only thing I see is that maybe it's a little bit complex. Maybe try simplifying the OPPOSITE way from what you think you need to do."


Closing the racket face sooner is exactly what I tried to do in the 'Closed start' clip. At the beginning of the backswing you'll notice the face is more closed than in the original clip. I thought the same as you, that I might get a reverse effect.

A few of you have said, "What's so wrong with the swing, it looks ok". Actually, in practise the shot works fine, but in a match, under tension, he gets scared to hit it, and when he does he's always late.

This was I think 10splayer main concern, and he's right. The kid can't get the shot out in time when rushed or when he has an awkwardly placed ball to deal with. The movement is slightly complex under duress to be able to pull of reliably

This isn't a long-term problem he's had since he started playing tennis. It just seemed to develop quickly when he was practising day in day out with friends. Trying to whip up low balls with topspin seems to be how it developed. Strange how something can get ingrained so quickly and become so hard to coach out!

BTW, if you saw his backhand you'd think I was a great coach. His backhand is a fail-safe, high-quality shot. The irony is I've hardly touched it. He has a naturally backhand that's just developed itself naturally as time's gone on. Of course, when people site what a good shot it is I beam with pride and take full responsibility.

[uspta146749877]

backswing

---->a quote by Oliensis
First of all, after seeing the kid's videos, I still wonder what's so terrible about the backswing. The only thing I see is that maybe it's a little bit complex. Maybe try simplifying the OPPOSITE way from what you think you need to do. Have him close the racket face SOONER,
----> it is a very good point,IMHO

[10splayer]

This hurts so much that I have to react. You did not get the hint about education. Please get an education first. Dedication, which I appreciate a lot in you, is not enough. All your information shows that you are not able to end this story in a positive way. This is why people like Bottle have traumas about "teachers".

Focus on an education in the Game Based Approach. Technique is important but only a means. Hitting a ball is about sending the ball. All the information you gave was about the reception of the ball. Important factors in the reception of a ball lie in 1. knowledge about ball trajectories 2. knowledge of the game situation 3. synchronisation with the incoming ball 4. observation of the ball. This last point was also mentioned by CarreraKent. You did not gave any reaction to his suggestion but give me the idea that you are obsessed in changing "your" stroke of this very unfortunate boy. Please find him a qualified teacher!

Sorry I can not put it in an other way.

Nico Mol.

Every time I think I've witnessed the most arrogant, big mouthed, critical of others, know it all tennis pro, a new one comes along, to top the list. You are now the reining king.

Game based approach? Watch the ball? Brilliant!

Anyone who has actually taught the game extensively, knows that technical flaws can creep into the games of even the most talented of students, even while under the watchful eye of the most astute instructors. It's happened to anyone who has taught this game. At least if their honest. I'm quite certain, however, this has never happened to you, nor will the point of this post change your ways. At least, that has been my experience with pros like you.

[tcuk]

I don't mind harsh comments about my work. I am prepared to put my work on the line for all to look at. Be critical, abusive, helpful...I invite all comments. And if some of you have come across a failsafe way of teaching students so horrible technical faults don't creep in let me know. Put any miracle cures online for everyone to see. We could all learn!

Anyone can coach tennis, but it's not easy to do it well with every student that comes along. It's a difficult job to be good at.

BTW, I did a clip which I should have uploaded demonstrating what many of you were looking for in terms of the racket face. As you can see the face is much more open. It's achieved by feeding spoon fed balls with the student taking the racket straight back. Once he tries to incorporate it in a full swing he can't do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httyprjPqw

sejsel...i wish i had thought of that...you are so right about kinethestic learning and memory.

there is one thing for sure in my experience...DO NOT tell a kid you are gonna change their technique cause they are doing it wrong. Geez, i can't even get touring pros to listen to that when they can't their strokes the way they want...they'd often rather continue on their blind hopeless path than change.

anyway, i trick my kids and adults. here's an example: i have a kid, good all-round athlete, 17, 6 ft. 4 in, playing tennis only one year. when he sets up to the ball properly and relaxes, he hits a pro ball. very very hard, tons of topspin!

but, on his serve he is trying to serve like Roddick today, Gonzales tomorrow...all of this stuff makes him totally inconsistent and he can't duplicate today's success tomorrow, that came as a result of visualization.

so, i see him trying to swing harder, trying to move his toss around, trying different grips, trying different arm take backs, etc...all of it is getting worse.

so, i have him walk over to the corner and pick up some balls...i ask to look at his racket. then i say....hey, throw those tennis balls over the net by the hopper while i try your racket out. he throws the balls over there with full arm extension over his head and perfect "kinetic chain" mechanics.

then, i DO NOT ask him to serve into the box. (why not...tennis technique thinking would kick in for him) instead i ask him to serve a ball over there at the trash can on the other side of the other court. i tell him that if he can hit it hard enough to move it i will buy him lunch. he tosses the ball in the air, i notice the toss is perfectly where i've been "trying" to get him to toss it, he extends so high up his right side and crushes the ball with the most natural swing i've ever seen except with good touring pros..he almost hits the trash can..

he turns to me with a frown and says, "almost." i then asked, "so, how did that motion feel?" he says, "out of this world powerful". then i explain to him how his left brain trying to hit the ball in a tennis technique fashion has totally taken his body away from his bodies already understood biomechanics. now, go serve and just extend like you already know how. don't use any technique.

i know that's a simple example, but i used his existing kinesthetic memory to achieve what any other form of technique adjustments may have never ever gotten him there.

[oliensis]

The Backswing & Game-Based Learning

First of all, after seeing the kid's videos, I still wonder what's so terrible about the backswing. The only thing I see is that maybe it's a little bit complex. Maybe try simplifying the OPPOSITE way from what you think you need to do. Have him close the racket face SOONER, like Djoker, so the hitting face is pointing to the back fence on the backswing. Then he won't be able to close any further in that "late-ish" flick that I think you are so troubled by. Also, you could try to get him to keep his elbow high on the backswing, which can sometimes simplify maintaining the hitting structure when going from backswing into the start of the forward swing. (If I remember right, Kafelnikov was an extreme exmaple of the high-elbowed backswing and pretty-well maintained hitting structure on the forehand.)

Second subject: If by game-based learning you mean roughly this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6n0BDGlFhI0C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=game-based+learning+tennis&source=bl&ots=By4kYBlILS&sig=pR5Dq8eexjTwRuTDR85JGwovkk8&hl=en&ei=nqeISqJJwqW2B5K83OcM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=game-based%20learning%20tennis&f=false

Well, after studying T'ai Chi (soft Chinese martial art) , Kalarippayatt (Indian weapon-weilding martial art), Tae Kwon Do (hard Korean bare-hand martial art), Hapkido (Korean grappling techniques), and some boxing for a combined 15 years or so, I can only tell you that there are many ways to skin a cat, and do it viciously well.

When I began studying I wondered which style would be superior in a face-to-face fight. Turns out, after many years of study, that the winner would be the one with the best practitioner.

The aim of all arts/sports ("ways" in the Eastern sense) is to integrate the inner and the outer self....and to integrate the integrated self with the universe. (In Freudian terms, we're all looking to resolve the diphasic nature of human psycho-sexual development--we're all trying come to terms with the fact that we are AWARE that we EXIST, and because of the distinction between awareness and existence we are capable of being ANXIOUS about our own existence. Or in simpler terms, we're all trying to get comfortable in our own skins. In Eastern terms, we're looking to dissolve the subject/object distinction and enter into a state of one-ness within the diversit of existence.)

There is no one "way" to do that. There are many "ways" to do that. (Yoga, meditation, martial arts, psychoanalysis, painting, acting, dancing, tennis, tea ceremonies, flower arrangement, calligraphy, bricklaying...even begging for alms may be a "way" if practiced correctly.) And within each of these "ways" there are varieties of paths...some that go "inside out" (beginning with the inner process and working toward the correct form) and some that go "outside in" (beginning with the correct form and working toward the inner process).

Whoever tells you that they have the "one way" (whoever claims to be THE BUDDHA, THE CHRIST, whatever...) is almost certainly lying. Whether that person adheres to a game-based approach to tennis, the belief that "ball quality" is the "whole deal," or that the proper contact point is the whole secret....Or whether that person is telling you that there is only one path to heaven and that all who do not take it are heretics.

What are the skills necessary for tennis? They are legion. And there are innumerable ways to learn each and all of them. And then there are innumerable ways to integrate them. I think any and all of us who learn and teach know that. And most of us try to work in numerous directions from purely technique-based drills to purely objective-based or strategically oriented modalities of learning. Most of us with a brain are trying to work both inside-out and outside-in...trying to work toward integrating all the legion skills required from whatever directions WORK for the individual.

But there are a couple of posters on these boards who would claim to know THE ways to do these things to the preclusion of all the other ways.

To these posters, I would just like to say, WISE UP! Lose your self-importance! Humble yourselves! Join the rest of the human race in recognizing that there are many pathways to the sun, that you and your way are fallible, and that your enthusiasm for the path that you are on should not give you even one moment's sense that you are entitled to believe that your way is superior to anyone else's.

Frankly, to the extent that one is arrogant is also the extent to which one is foolish and risible. It's also the extent to which, in my weaker moments, you give me a royal pain in the ass.

Happy tennis to all!

[sejsel]

This hurts so much that I have to react. You did not get the hint about education. Please get an education first. Dedication, which I appreciate a lot in you, is not enough. All your information shows that you are not able to end this story in a positive way. This is why people like Bottle have traumas about "teachers".

Focus on an education in the Game Based Approach. Technique is important but only a means. Hitting a ball is about sending the ball. All the information you gave was about the reception of the ball. Important factors in the reception of a ball lie in 1. knowledge about ball trajectories 2. knowledge of the game situation 3. synchronisation with the incoming ball 4. observation of the ball. This last point was also mentioned by CarreraKent. You did not gave any reaction to his suggestion but give me the idea that you are obsessed in changing "your" stroke of this very unfortunate boy. Please find him a qualified teacher!

Sorry I can not put it in an other way.

Nico Mol.

Well, there's also a tiny little thing called "kinesthetic sense" involved in acquiring a "new skill" or (in this, much harder case) re-learning something that is instilled in ones muscle-memory. Incidentally, this sort of memory is way "stronger" than many other sorts of memory we are as yet familiar with.
But even movement of this complexity (much of it due to the incoming ball moving in many varied ways and speeds) can be broken down to its elementary parts. Everything can be re-learned, if that decision is firm with the coach and the student - this has been done earlier even at pro level, on forehand side, with good and permanent results.

It is well known what amount of correct (movement that is in within the frames of biomechanically "correct" and non-hindering) movement has to be executed in order for this sort of acqusition to happen.

It is question of both methodics and knowledge of technique and applied biomechanics, as well as observing various subtle flaws throughout the execution of the stroke.
Just a word of initial (and very general) advice - when relearning the stroke, it has to be done without kid (student) being rushed by the ball - start outside of court, or at the court, the pace has to be as slow as needed for the kid to execute without a single flaw in the motion. (both in sending the ball and executing the stroke, or even parts of the stroke).
Work has to be meticulous, care and attention for detail in execution throughout the stroke is the key.

In order for game - based approach to be implemented succesfully - it has to be done, IMHO, at much younger age, and earlier stage, if we are talking about serious tennis, and it has to be done correctly from the very beginning.

There are some indications that game-based approach-fixation has actually contributed in many instances to the overall decrease in the technical and overall quality of tennis being taught and played, especially at early junior level.
This has been written by some very serious names in the coaching world.

In this case, that single method or recipe is neither the complete cure nor the complete answer to this particular sort of problem in developing a "sound" player.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense, if not anything else (I won't even mention all kinds of accumulated experiences all over the world in teaching kids and adults over many years) can easily realize that.

[airforce1]

This hurts so much that I have to react. You did not get the hint about education. Please get an education first. Dedication, which I appreciate a lot in you, is not enough. All your information shows that you are not able to end this story in a positive way. This is why people like Bottle have traumas about "teachers".

Focus on an education in the Game Based Approach. Technique is important but only a means. Hitting a ball is about sending the ball. All the information you gave was about the reception of the ball. Important factors in the reception of a ball lie in 1. knowledge about ball trajectories 2. knowledge of the game situation 3. synchronisation with the incoming ball 4. observation of the ball. This last point was also mentioned by CarreraKent. You did not gave any reaction to his suggestion but give me the idea that you are obsessed in changing "your" stroke of this very unfortunate boy. Please find him a qualified teacher!
Sorry I can not put it in an other way.

Nico Mol.

Any interestingly harsh take from you, an instructor who can't seem to get one instructor on this site to understand what you are talking about.
Seems you would be very understanding of other coaches not being able to make certain connections at times.

Tcuk, I think maybe it is not so important to eradicate this old swing, but more important to help him to learn to work on the areas where it gives him trouble. Then maybe the stroke may shape itself over time.

ouch!