Dog Pat Part 2

[uspta990770809]

Posting Amber's update

As Airforce and Don have pointed out, the arm stalls as the loop bottoms out. Couldn't agree more. Also, as Don points out, "the forearm is moving in the wrong direction as it nears the bottom of the swing". Although he explains this more eloquently than I do, this has always been my position.

In my opinion, this is why the arm stalls.

As I've mentioned before, with the stronger grips, I see the backswing as nothing more than a closed to open system. the racquet is going to naturally close somewhat in the backswing, (this effect can be enhanced by pronating the forearm slightly) This requires a counter rotation (external rotation of upper arm, and supination of the forearm) to open up the racquet face and set up the the hitting arm structure. Most all forehands, work this way in varying degrees. At least, from what I've seen.

Others may disagree, but I believe this supination is what turns the downward momentum of the backswing into a forward motion. In other words, this is what changes the direction of the swing. As such, in terms of fluidity, the timing of this move is critical. in the boys case, he simply is not reversing the forearm soon enough, and the arm drags or stalls. In fact he's continuing to close the face even more, even as the arm should be rotating towards a supine position.

Tcuk, stole this drill from Doug King, I think, and believe it is applicable in this situation.. Have G hold a plastic cup half filled with water as if he has arrived at the top of the backswing. As he starts to lower the cup, and near the bottom of the downswing, have him spill the water backwards, which will simulate a supinating move. (exactly opposite of the way he is currently rotating his forearm)

Have him take the empty cup, and again move up to the top of the backswing with his hand on top, and the closed end of the cup facing forward. have him again lower the cup, and then rotate the cup so the open end is facing forward as he nears the bottom of the loop. Show him how when he "flips the cup" the elbow draws in and starts to move forward or "lead" even as the hand is rotated back.

Shadow swing with the racquet using the same principle. Racquet face partially, or fully closed at the top of the backswing. Lower the hitting structure, and then have him rotate the butt cap toward the right net post, as he gets close to the bottom of the downswing. Again show him how the elbow has moved from the back of the structure to the front of the structure. Have him take note of how the racquet head has rotated back and down. I would have him work on this manually until he gets the feel of these critical positons.

I really hope this helps Tcuk.


P.S. The Angela's asteroids excersice is so money. Have G do this for 10 min every practice, and see if he doesn't quickly realize how to use momentum and the weight of the racquet head to aid in the redirection of the swing.

I love the drill with the cup. And I'm so glad to hear someone actually tried and appreciates "Angela's Asteroids". Now let's see if I can attach these files. They are so big in the 210FPS mode.

I'll first try to attach the updates of the two views John used in the article, and then the actual original files he used. You can look at them side by side in QuickTime.

There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference when you look at the video, but the stroke is definitely changeing. So that tells me a very small difference in what we see in the high speed video can make a big change in the effectiveness of the stroke. It's a long way from where I want it, but extension through the ball is much better and she is starting to get below the ball a little better. The dog pat is only marginally reduced if at all, but she thinks she has changed it a lot. I do think the face is squareing up a little sooner. CK would be pleased to see the contact is more in front and the arm somewhat more extended. I just want to see the elimination of the shortening and bending as she starts to swing forward.

So let's see if I can load it. I got the clips all just under 5MB, but that is still a lot.

They should load by the MaxFilesize limits, but I can't get anything in. Sorry, it will have to wait until John gets free from Cincy.
don
PS I'll try to learn how to upload the files to youtube. I don't think it's that hard, but I've never done it.

[tcuk]

10splayer, Now that is a very interesting and you've explained it well. I've re-watched the video clips and see exactly what you mean. God, I'm blind sometimes! Amazing how I can watch something a 100 times yet not work it out.

I'll put your theories to the test as soon as G returns.

[10splayer]

As Airforce and Don have pointed out, the arm stalls, as the loop bottoms out. Couldn't agree more. Also, as Don points out, "the forearm is moving in the wrong direction as it nears the bottom of the swing". Although he explains this more eloquently than I did, this has always been my position.

In my opinion, this is why the arm stalls.

As I've mentioned before, with the stronger grips, I see the backswing as nothing more than a closed to open system. the racquet is going to naturally close somewhat in the backswing, (this effect can be enhanced by pronating the forearm slightly) This requires a counter rotation (external rotation of upper arm, and supination of the forearm) to open up the racquet face and set up the the hitting arm structure. Most all forehands, work this way in varying degrees. At least, from what I've seen.

Others may disagree, but I believe this supination is what turns the downward momentum of the backswing into a forward motion. In other words, this is what helps change the direction of the swing. As such, in terms of fluidity, the timing of this move is critical. in the boys case, he simply is not reversing the forearm soon enough, and the arm drags or stalls. In fact he's continuing to close the face even more, even as the arm should be rotating towards a supine position.

Tcuk, stole this drill from Doug King, I think, and believe it is applicable in this situation.. Have G hold a plastic cup half filled with water as if he has arrived at the top of the backswing. As he starts to lower the cup, and near the bottom of the downswing, have him spill the water backwards, which will simulate a supinating move. (exactly opposite of the way he is currently rotating his forearm)

Have him take the empty cup, and again move up to the top of the backswing with his hand on top, and the closed end of the cup facing forward. have him again lower the cup, palm down, and then rotate the cup so the open end is facing forward as he nears the bottom of the loop. Show him how when he "flips the cup" the elbow draws in and starts to move forward or "lead" even as the hand is rotated back.

Shadow swing with the racquet using the same principle. Racquet face partially, or fully closed at the top of the backswing. Lower the hitting structure, and then have him rotate the butt cap toward the right net post, as he gets close to the bottom of the downswing. Again show him how the elbow has moved from the back of the structure to the front of the structure. Have him take note of how the racquet head has rotated back and down. I would have him work on this manually until he gets the feel of these critical positons.

I really hope this helps Tcuk.


P.S. The Angela's asteroids excercise is so money. Have G do this for 10 min every practice, and see if he doesn't quickly realize how to use momentum and the weight of the racquet head to aid in the redirection of the swing.

[tcuk]

Thanks for all your comments and observations, Carrerakent. You've certainly been a lively and active contributor to the Dog Pat threads.

It's been a very active thread and the help I've had from fellow coaches has been impressive. I've been insulted here and there too, but what can I expect when I put my work on show in a forum

As I mentioned earlier, my student is away for 10 days but as soon as he returns I will be getting back to work. I will be going all out to try get his racket face more where it should be. And yes a bit more space between him and ball wouldn't come amiss, Carrerakent.

It could be that the dog pat may prove too probelmatic to get rid off and the kid may have to live with it. As Airforce, Oliensis, Jperedo have all suggested if the worst comes to the worst we can try working round his current technique by helping him to deal with the type of balls he finds most tricky: wide balls and fast balls. He could perhaps learn to adapt in these areas.

Oddly enough, he hits high (slow) midcourt balls well with his dog pat technique - an asset in any standard of tennis.

I'm keen to find out how Don is getting on with Amber Park. He's about a month ahead of me, but Amber only sees Don once a week. I see G 3 to 4 times per week. I also have the option to place G in a completely 'closed coaching environment'.

I will post the conclusion of the Dog Pat - successful or otherwise - in a seperate thread in a month or two. I will upload clips too.

In the mean time, this thread remains open to all to contribute.

Tcuk, I think maybe it is not so important to eradicate this old swing, but more important to help him to learn to work on the areas where it gives him trouble. Then maybe the stroke may shape itself over time.

Tcuk,

I agree with airforce1 ...but it is accompanied with my belief that once he becomes aware of his contact point and doesn't bend the arm at the last second when he realizes he judged it wrong then you can shorten his back swing, so to speak, and get the racket face more behind the ball...meaning you can draw a straight line between the racket head, the ball, and the intended target. (but still getting even more shoulder turn to help with is lack of strength...that too should help things).That should tone down the dog pat as you call it and also eliminate the delay. i am sorry that i didn't explain my point on this better earlier. in part i realize more now in what you are trying to accomplish.

good luck

[tcuk]

Continental

I understand everyone's concerns about a temporary switch to the continental grip, but experimenting with the continental grip did reveal a lot about muscle memory. If you watch the clip again you'll see his arm fighting like mad to get in the dog pat position even though the grip won't allow it. It just highlights what coaches are up against with problems like this.

I can tell you for certain what the biggest problem is a coaching scenario like this: The student cannot feel/visualize what his arm/hand is doing when it's behind his body. He is convinced he is doing what is asked of him and can't believe his eyes when he sees the video playbacks. It's the transition point from backswing to forward swing that is the most difficult for him to visualize and carry out.

The kid is away for 10 days now. When he returns I'm going to drop feed him hundreds of balls with his racket drawn back ready and the racket face more open. This he can definitely do. Hopefully he will be able to incorporate it into his full swing over time.

I understand the preparation model laid out in the Amber Park model and have re-read the article. I feel Amber's problem is more severe; she tends to shove the ball. G's dog pat he can presently get away with at the moment (he wins lots of matches) and some coaches even suggest leave it be. I'm not so sure. I haven't seen a full dog pat used on the tour yet, has anyone?

carrerakent,

I understand the points you are making, but how is it going to resolve the dog pat. If I set up a perfect contact point by drop feeding a ball that racket still ends up in the dog position.

trust or not trust

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about.

tcuk, but how can these changes work if he's not more aware of where his contact point should be and what the ball is doing? forgive me if i already said this, but isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

try this if you want: have a player stand at the other baseline. feed a ball from your baseline and have the player put his racket where he/she thinks contact should be for the ball that is in flight to them as quickly as possible. (this is designed of course to get them to recognize the velocity, trajectory, and spin of the ball early on.)

tell the student that once he/she determines the contact point they cannot move their racket, but are to let it simply hit the strings or miss. 100% of your experienced tennis player students will move the racket at the last second if they perceive they read it wrong originally. a total beginner will probably not move their racket.

what is my point? tennis players are taught to adjust at the last second and as most everyone on here advocates that bending the arm in is an okay adjustment, tennis players are not able to read balls as well...because they can always just adjust at that last second. i would think that accuracy, power and spin are surely sacrificed with last second adjustments whether they are in shortening the arm or lengthening it.

if you use this drill and keep encouraging them to read as early as possible and trust their decision, but mostly, they HAVE TO let the ball miss the racket if they are wrong. i think you will be impressed over time with how quickly they start seeing the ball better, bending their arm much less and every aspect of their game will improve.

[uspta990770809]

Amber's progress

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA

How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about.

We've been working once a week for about a month and we are starting to see some real progress in the shot. I'm still not happy about the presence of the "dog pat", but the racket is getting into hitting earlier and she is starting to hit through the ball with real pace. I'll try to get some video up here later today or tomorrow.
don

I agree with the above parts. Yes, the racket face never hits certain points now, but it is what the hand and arm are doing that is important, right??
which did not really change, right?

continental will most likely lead to all kind of compensations for a hard hitter like this kid.

i totally agree with airforce1 about compensations. would hate to see them start creeping up.

i think his first few videos were much more of a good basis for future success. he looked more natural for his body.

[airforce1]

Hi,

For the record i believe continental is NOT a solution even for a month-

I wish I am wrong about the continental grip.

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

I agree with the above parts. Yes, the racket face never hits certain points now, but it is what the hand and arm are doing that is important, right??
which did not really change, right?

continental will most likely lead to all kind of compensations for a hard hitter like this kid.

On a related subject, Have you guys seen this?

http://www.tennis-in-the-zone.com/Step-1.html

I've found it constructive in terms of establishing clear contact points especially.

Very interesting. That is very similar to the method my coach uses. He teaches that the first phase of learning as a tennis player is to be a goalie, not a racket swinger or ball striker. And the part about basically giving tasks that "trick" the player into shifting to what he calls parallel mode, we see it as left brain vs right brain function.

Mr. O,

how about I respond in the "double bend" thread since this related and that way tcuk can stay on track with this thread?

[uspta146749877]

Continental grip

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA

How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about.

Hi,
you should get somehow John Yandell inro this discussion quicker.
For the record i believe continental is NOT a solution even for a month-
it comes with a long painful experience.
I wish I am wrong about the continental grip.

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

[oliensis]

Nice forehand!
The kid must be really talented to be able to feel where the racket face is using a continental grip after having grooved a SW grip. It would take me a long time to re-groove my old '70s continental grip after switching to SW when I started playing again in the '90s.

I like his backswing, and I think the sync-ing of when he opens his left side is better.
When you go back to his SW grip it will be interesting to see if he goes back to opening his left side early. (That seems like it's eased up in this clip.)

On a related subject, Have you guys seen this?

http://www.tennis-in-the-zone.com/Step-1.html

I've found it constructive in terms of establishing clear contact points especially.

One more thing: Had my 14-yr old daughter on the court this week. She played middle-school tennis last year. Will be a freshman this year. She spends more time in dance class than on the tennis court.

Shared the "contact point" image w/ her and it was moderately helpful. But when I worked w/ her on getting the left arm across the line of the ball and then "counter-rotating" in sync, she began hitting her forehand w/ some real authority for the first time.

[tcuk]

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA

How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about.