Dog Pat Part 2

[oliensis]

Carrera,
Here's an interesting question to ponder.

In the Federe '09 stroke archive, I've just gone through all the forehands, in the "center" section at:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/roger-federer/

and, honestly, I don't love what I see there, esp. compared to the earlier Federer stroke archive. Why? Because in the '09 archive he so often falls away from the ball as/after he hits it. In the earlier archive that happens some, but much more often his movement is into the ball, through the ball, and then back after the centifugal force of his swing has carried him forward and around.

Let's assume for the moment that you're right about Fed's motivations, that he would, if possible, just about always hit an extended/straight-arm forehand. And that part of his genius is being able to shift the axis of vertical rotation from right hip, to center, to left hip as a last-second adjustment in order to accomodate less-than-perfect spacing on his setup into the forehand...which shifting of axis allows him to hit the more extended forehand relatively more often.

Given that on a given shot he has moved too close to the ball and that he has to make a last-second adjustment to accomodate this "in reality" spacing he may have two choices: 1) shift the axis of rotation to the right hip and fall away from the shot w/out really getting his movement through the ball (as he does so often in '09) or 2) double bend the arm to adjust for being too close to the ball, but keep his movement through the ball.

Obviously, in your view, neither is optimal, as he "should" have gauged the incoming ball better. But tennis is a game in which how one adjusts to sub-optimal situations is probably more important than how one performs optimally. In my view, "it depends" (on innumerable factors).

Wondering whether you think adjustment #1 above is always or almost always preferable to adjustment #2.

Mr. O... amen on keeping the shoulder turn longer and delaying the opening.

[oliensis]

Here's another thought, FWIW.
In this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYWr07tq6yo
I notice that the left arm, after reaching across on the unit turn, opens up along w/ his left shoulder before pulling across. It's during that action that you're getting the hitch in the backswing. Both his "wings" (so to speak) open up, dispersing some of the potential energy built up in the unit turn.

One way to address smoothing the transition from backswing to swing might be to get him to keep the left hand across the line of the ball for longer...to delay opening the left shoulder. The way I think of it is that I want to keep my left shoulder ACROSS the line of the ball, at 1:00 or 2:00 where 12:00 is the line of the ball (further to the right than the line of the ball on righty forehand) as long as possible.

Another way might be to get him to imitate various pros' backswings (e.g. Del Potro) just for fun. No pressure. Let's fool around w/ this for laughs...can you hit a forehand like Del Potro, like Federer, like Agassi, like Nadal (if you have the courage). See if engaging his kid/fun/goofy/imaginitive/intuitive side kicks a different kinaesthetic sense into gear.

[tcuk]

uspta146749877

Thanks for the link to the grip article. My student is more semi-western than full-western, so I have no concerns here. I did experiment changing him to an eastern grip to correct his problem. It made no difference. He just twists his arm more to get into the dog pat position. That's how rooted the problem is.

Yes, I basket feed, drop feed, and every slow method of feeding you can think of. And we do loads of reps.

Yes, hitting when out of the coach's sight is a major problem for all of us. Spending two hours a week in a closed coaching environment then another 8 hours playing with friends can be counter productive. I need to figure out what to do here, but the likely outcome will be for me to take him out of the game for a month and keep him in a purely coached environment.

Carrerakent,

I will await you mentor's comments with interest.

tcuk.

i sent the links to the videos to my coach/mentor to see what he says. i told him to look beyond the obvious that the boy is too close to the ball and he's not looking at the ball...i figure my coach will say that we are all pretty silly for trying to make changes until you fix those two critical elements. i will agree if he says that. if he doesn't, i just did. : )

[uspta146749877]

Point #2

uspta146749877

I don't expect a quick result. I'm a patient fellow who's prepared to wait. It's the path to correction I can't seem to find for my student. Everything I try never quite works...something needs to click.

I came to the forum looking for tips, teaching cues, advice, ideas to try, and to connect with coaches who have battled the same problem (and hopefully suceeded). It's been an amazing experience: some coaches are practical, some turn the game into a science, some say let nature take it's course. On balance, I tend to lead toward the practical side, but all the philosophies seem to have their merits. The science of the game is certainly starting to interest me more than it used to.

Your point number 2 is certainly very relevant.

you should think how to implement point #2.
Slowing down feeds should be considered too.
Doing visuals in slow motion should help too.
Please read a pragraph entitled grip
of
https://www.tennisplayer.net/article...-the-forehand/
PS Friends call me julian

[tcuk]

uspta146749877

I don't expect a quick result. I'm a patient fellow who's prepared to wait. It's the path to correction I can't seem to find for my student. Everything I try never quite works...something needs to click.

I came to the forum looking for tips, teaching cues, advice, ideas to try, and to connect with coaches who have battled the same problem (and hopefully suceeded). It's been an amazing experience: some coaches are practical, some turn the game into a science, some say let nature take it's course. On balance, I tend to lead toward the practical side, but all the philosophies seem to have their merits. The science of the game is certainly starting to interest me more than it used to.

Your point number 2 is certainly very relevant.

[uspta146749877]

Patience is a virtue

Ok here is a clip with G's racket face closed as the unit turn commences. Oliensis and I were hoping for a reverse effect from doing this whereby the racket might be less dog pat at the transition from backswing to forward swing. But we are still left with that awkward transition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYWr07tq6yo

I can get what I want with basket fed ball where G simply draws his racket straight back. As you can see the angle of the racket face is a more orthodox. He also brushes up better too. Sorry the clip is not in slomo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httyprjPqw

The problem is he can't achieve this racket face angle with a full swing commencing from the unit turn.

Airforce's main concern is in G's transition from backswing to forward swing too. And it is a puzzle. The forearm twists and the wrist is kind of cocks up (and it does on both low, medium, and high balls) instead of "laying back passively", as one forum member put it.

The problem is how can I get him to achieve this "laying back" state.

In answer to some of the other comments:

1. Yes I am going to re-read the Amber Park article. Though her dog pat looks different to G's. But yes I will study every word.

2. No, John Yandell hasn't got back to me re uploading clips directly. The bloke must be bloody busy running this site. It's popular! I'll wait to hear a let you know. It seems some can upload clips while some can't.

3. uspta990770809 I've printed off all your comments and will work thru them. Thanks so much for your input.

Hi,
I do NOT understand why do u expect positive results so quickly?
It is a serious question.
What is a balance of a racket used?
Problems maybe partially related to :
1.strength of forearms
2.some problems with muscle memory-
he practices with you,he does A
he practices with his friends,he does B etc

[tcuk]

Closed Face

Ok here is a clip with G's racket face closed as the unit turn commences. Oliensis and I were hoping for a reverse effect from doing this whereby the racket might be less dog pat at the transition from backswing to forward swing. But we are still left with that awkward transition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYWr07tq6yo

I can get what I want with basket fed ball where G simply draws his racket straight back. As you can see the angle of the racket face is a more orthodox. He also brushes up better too. Sorry the clip is not in slomo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httyprjPqw

The problem is he can't achieve this racket face angle with a full swing commencing from the unit turn.

Airforce's main concern is in G's transition from backswing to forward swing too. And it is a puzzle. The forearm twists and the wrist is kind of cocks up (and it does on both low, medium, and high balls) instead of "laying back passively", as one forum member put it.

The problem is how can I get him to achieve this "laying back" state.

In answer to some of the other comments:

1. Yes I am going to re-read the Amber Park article. Though her dog pat looks different to G's. But yes I will study every word.

2. No, John Yandell hasn't got back to me re uploading clips directly. The bloke must be bloody busy running this site. It's popular! I'll wait to hear and let you know. It seems some can upload clips while some can't.

3. uspta990770809 I've printed off all your comments and will work thru them. Thanks so much for your input.

[John Yandell]

I swamped guys, in cincy filming and just can't deal for a while. wait til you see what we're filming btw. i will address the upload might take a while though

[uspta146749877]

For tcuk

We still have a very general question open: how to deal to with low
balls in a case of a semi-western grip?
julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873

[airforce1]

The thing that bothers me most about G's swing is that there is a separation between the downswing and the forward swing. It seems to me he swings the racket from the unit turn position to a position back and down and then reverses the momentum of the racket head as he swings the racket forward in a separate motion level or slightly up through the ball. I want to see the momentum of that downward swing incorporated into the forward swing so he gets the benefit of the gravity drop as well as the benefit of the energy he's put into swinging the racket down. That might also get him to swing the head a little lower and give him a chance to square up the racket head before he swings forward to the ball.

don, well stated above, as this was my concern as well.

[uspta146749877]

For tcuk

Did u get any response from John Yandell about uploading videos
to Tennisplayer.net?

[uspta990770809]

Watch the contiuity of the downswing

Correct, and predictably, I like the change. With a stronger grip, the racquet is going to want to close somewhat . In my mind, when, and to what degree, the racquet face closes are important things to note.

As I mentioned in the first thread, your student had the racquet more or less on edge at the top of the backswing, and then continued to close the face all the way through the drop. In other words, he "closed the racquet late" in the backswing. I've found that this can, interfere with the timely set of the hitting arm structure and a quick, almost violent, transition from downswing to foreward swing. Neither of which are good for defense, adjusting, and dealing with the dynamic nature of the game. This was my inquiry/concern.

Admittedly, I'm a bit of simpleton when it comes to backswings. I like someone like Blake as a model. Essentially, as he steps up to the top of the backswing, he closes the racquet face, and then just passively lays it down from there. This is what I stress with my kids. Set the angle of the raquet at the top of the backswing, and then don't screw with it as it drops. (a sooner as opposed to later sort of thing)

I've found this is to be a much, much, more responsive type of backswing. Affords them the ability to defend, adust, hit on the move, and meet their contact point requirements under duress. At least there in with a chance.

I think it's so important to get kids into backswings that allow them to produce shots, from anywhere on the court, under any situation. Closing the racquet face earlier as opposed to later, is simpler in my opinion.

Stotty,
I've been following this thread right from the start and I think 10splayer has a really important point here. Obviously, I'm especially interested because it is similar to a problem I'm having with the subject of John's Your Strokes article last month, Amber's forehand. It might be good for you to reread what John had to say in that article, especially about how early the "hitting structure" has to be established. Although some of the pro clips show the racket face continuing to close on the downswing, almost all of them have the racket going back the other way and opening up to just slightly closed before that downswing is completed (the beginning of the true forward swing). John's recommendation for Amber was to try to set the racket as vertical as possible in that downswing (not easy to accomplish even in static positions). 10s player is suggesting something slightly different here, but similar in saying the closing of the face has to be completed before the downswing starts.

The thing that bothers me most about G's swing is that there is a separation between the downswing and the forward swing. It seems to me he swings the racket from the unit turn position to a position back and down and then reverses the momentum of the racket head as he swings the racket forward in a separate motion level or slightly up through the ball. I want to see the momentum of that downward swing incorporated into the forward swing so he gets the benefit of the gravity drop as well as the benefit of the energy he's put into swinging the racket down. That might also get him to swing the head a little lower and give him a chance to square up the racket head before he swings forward to the ball. Please check my articles out and see my drill, "Angela's Asteroids". You'll find it half way through the July 2008 article. I think it is really important to have the racket head move in a continuous, and hopefully, accelerating motion to the ball from the end of the unit turn or whenever the actual swing at the ball starts.

The other thing I've noticed working on Amber's forehand is I really like to use the image of Sampras's early forehand when he was 10 with the old style straight finish as a stepping stone to feeling what it is like to hit through the ball and not just go around it. Executing the wrap without that solid "hit through the ball" feel is missing the point. I know Amber is not going to end up hitting a 60's style forehand with the racket pointing to the opposite fence across the net, but executing that motion sure goes a long way to getting her to feel what it is like to hit the ball solid.

One of my main points in teaching is that the kids have to feel what the good shot is and want to recreate that good feeling because they know intrinsically and can clearly feel that that is better, not because I tell them it is. Some get there with words, more with visual clues and some only by experiencing the correct motion, but somewhere along the line the light has to go on illuminating the message in their heads that "that" (whatever "that" is) is the right way for them to do "that". Until that happens, you can't even begin the battle of good repetitions against old habits (not an easy battle either; victory is by no means assured).

don

[tcuk]

Thanks, 10splayer. I'm learning a lot here. I'm going to work on the more closed start and see what develops. I'll post clips with the results.

I'm most appreciative of everyone's help. I really am.