Rather frustrating...

[gzhpcu]

Still can't get a good racket drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnLtNjQhKco

John analyzed this once, but wonder if I am just not flexible enough... I keep loose, but still....

[tennis_chiro]

try fig 8's

Still can't get a good racket drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnLtNjQhKco

John analyzed this once, but wonder if I am just not flexible enough... I keep loose, but still....

I didn't see John's analysis or forgot it, but to get that deep pro drop, you have to have the racket head come into the low point of the swing with a little momentum as you actually swing up with your hand; then the momentum of the racket head drags and stretches the shoulder back to that ideal position.

To get the feel of that, I have my students do what I call Fig 8's. Imagine you are serving in a narrow alley that extends from behind you to where you are hitting the ball in the service box: 2 feet wide with 30 foot high glass walls, ...thin glass walls. Now you must swing the racket through your service motion without hitting the walls, including on the followthrough to your left. To practice continuous motion you add a bogus part to the motion on the follow through; that is, you keep going making a big circle on the left side of your body -without hitting those glass walls. To get the feeling of that, just do a couple of circles on the left side. The circle will bring you back to the starting point on your motion and you can go right back into the beginning of your serve. Now you make continuous "figure 8's".

To really benefit from this, you should do the motion with a slightly weighted racket. Attach a small weight (not more than one pound) to the center of the strings on an old racket. This will warm up your shoulder and also stretch it.

Then you want to try to actually hit multiple serves without stopping. Of course, you are back to your regular, unweighted racket. So you grab 2 balls; do a couple of figure 8's and then, without stopping, go right into a serve. Keep your feet still. It's important to learn balance before you start throwing yourself into the court (as we have discussed). Then without stopping go right into a figure 8 and then hit the second ball after another practice swing. So you get the feel of 4 or 5 swings for 2 balls hit in a continuouis motion.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything on youtube that does exactly the drill, but I will put it up. In the meantime, I put up a clip of me working rhythm which incorporates a figure 8 and a practice toss-and-catch and an actual hit. It will give you some idea of what I am talking about until I actually put something up better. I've been meaning to put something up and maybe this will prompt me to do it. In the meantime, this will help a little bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wkhxlMD-0o

Now, the real key to making this work is a little tougher. Once you have a little feel for this, take your normal service stance. Hold your shoulders in the position they are in (orientation of left shoulder pointing at left net post, racket shaft essentially pointing toward the target in the direction of our "alley"). Keep your shoulders and racket in that position and keep your image of the glass alley. Point your left foot perpendicular to the baseline (it should have been pointed approx. at the right net post in your regular stance.) Keeping your upper body in the same position, bring your right foot up parallel to and touching your left. Yes, you are a bit twisted. (You said you were pretty flexible, Phil!) Now your body wants to twist forward. When you are standing sideways it wants to stay sideways but for the kinetic chain of the serve to work, the body had to lead from the hips up to make the "pro drop" really work.

Now try to do the Figure 8's. First without the ball, then with an actual hit and then continuous hits as you did earlier in the drill. You will feel as if your are leading your motion with your belly button. Remember, you still have to keep your motion between the glass walls. (You can also practice this drill standing next to a fence, but only one side at a time).

Once I get over the basic confusion this causes my students and get them in line, the vast majority start to feel the correct service motion and the deep racket head drop. It has to drop onto the line that goes to the ball and the target to allow a powerful, effective snap. Brian and John's videos and graphics show all this, but they don't tell you how to achieve it.

The final step is to integrate the feel of the feet-together-forward-Fig 8's into your actual normal position and then your actual serve.

If you got to this point you are a real trooper (without me standing next to you pushing you around). The next stage is a 2 ball 4 motion integration of the feet forward and regular fig 8's. Start feet forward; do a practice swing; without stopping then hit the first ball; without stopping the racket, as the racket starts on another figure 8, pull the right foot back to it's normal position (your left foot will probably also pivot a little towards its normal position) and complete another figure 8; now continue around and hit the second ball; that's 4 continuous motions with 2 balls, integrating the figure 8-feet forward with a regular figure 8 and you should have a better feel of your "racket drop" position. Regardless of how low the racket head goes, you will get a better snap. This is the real power of the legs in the serve. It is not the jump upward.

Phil, for your backswing, you have to get your right shoulder extended a little more to free the motion up to where the racket head can actually drop a little further. That does not mean a higher elbow, just one in line with your clavicles. Think about raising your arms in an expansive motion, as if you are a preacher embracing his flock(!?*); think wide...but keep everything basically in line.

I will try to get something more illustrative on youtube before the end of the week. I hope this helps you out

don
PS (I have not forgotten about our other little discussion, just not enough time to get to it.)

[stotty]

Looks terribly stiff despite your efforts to be loose. How old are you? As folk get into their 50s and onwards, the ability to do a full racket drop sometimes disappears or becomes more difficult - not always, but in fair section of the tennis population. People who start playing in later life often cannot achieve a full r/drop.

Did you know this? It's to do with flexibility as we age. I had a pamphlet on it...I'll c if I can dig it out and scan it to you. I can't remember the exact science of it to explain it to you...and how to improve flexibility.

If I can find it, I'll upload it.

[gzhpcu]

I am 65. I started playing at the age of 10...



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I know I am rather stiff. Contact point looks more or less OK to me, and the post contact with the elbow high and the face of the racket turned outward seems OK too... It is the racket drop I would like to improve.

Thanks Don, will try out what you suggest...

[bman]

You need to get your hitting elbow up.

[stotty]

Can you get into the r/drop without difficulty doing a shadow stroke? Have you taken a clip of yourself shadow stroking a serve, just to be sure? You know how it is...sometimes you think you're doing a certain movement in tennis but you're not.

Looks like there is a physical stiffness around the r/drop area of the action...then gets looser after that. I'd like to see if you can shadow stroke loosely. It would tell us a lot.

[gzhpcu]

When I do the shadow stroke in front of a mirror, I can the racket drop at least one foot lower down my back. I try to "memorize" the feeling. I am then convinced that when I serve when playing that I am getting that lower drop.

Then I take a video, and violà: just the same as before...

I did the exercise John recommended with the circles, it got minimally better but not where it should be...

[stotty]

Well if you can shadow stroke the r/drop comfortably and without restriction then at least it rules out a physical restriction.

Tough one to crack when you think you're doing a movement and you're not. It means you're unlikely to achieve it without the help of someone overseeing you.

It's not rocket science. You can shadow stroke the movement and fully understand the mechanics, so all you need is someone standing behind being honest with you, telling you how close you are getting or not to a full r/drop.

There is no magic formula for this kind of correction I feel. Just dedication, a lot of repetition, a video camera, and a buddy to help out.

[gzhpcu]

I have the feeling that somehow over the years, I have an engrained, trained reflex to tighten up prior to initiating the racket drop and this causes me to lose flexibility...

Nobody ever told me, it is only since I started using a video camera about 5 years ago that I noticed it. I always had a dependable, fairly strong serve so I never thought about it. I had a ranking of 5.0 for about 20 years. When I stopped playing tournaments 5 years ago, I was still ranked 4.0.

Even my current tennis pro I train with, an Argentine, former ATP challenger player (39 years old), says not to worry about it, because he remembers that Andre Gomez also did not have a good racket drop. This reasoning never convinced me, and I am on a mission to try to improve my racket drop, and change my programmed reflex.

[10splayer]

Still can't get a good racket drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnLtNjQhKco

John analyzed this once, but wonder if I am just not flexible enough... I keep loose, but still....

My feeling is that you should work on a better "trophy position" and specifically the upper arm to torso angle. Gordon states that a "minimum angle of 80 degrees is optimal". You're not even close. Which is forcing you to lift/abduct your arm high enough to get it to go down your back. Difficult to time, and the reason you are cutting off you backswing.

Just my 02 cents.

P.s. I think the reference info is in the "windup" section of his epic article.

[gzhpcu]

Larry,
Good point. Will look at that aspect.

However, look at Djokovic:



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and he still gets a great racket drop...

[10splayer]

Larry,
Good point. Will look at that aspect.

However, look at Djokovic:



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and he still gets a great racket drop...

Agreed, it's low. However, for every one that is low, there are twenty that achieve this upper arm angle. Which is certainly more convincing than anything I can tell you.

Took another look at this, and am even more convinced this is a source problem. It's just very difficult to lift/abduct the arm that far in the windup/backswing transition. It's inherently more easy to load the shoulder, find an acceptable racquet drop position, and sync the arm progressions with the leg drive, from a more elevated elbow position.

[stotty]

As you attempt the r/drop, are you slackening the grip at the heel of the hand to make entry into the r/drop easier? If not, try it, it might help.

Elbow does look low....can't be sure without a seeing slomo clip from the side. The elbow can be low so long as it is linear to the shoulders...some players are steeper than others with regards to their ALM. But you're knowledgeable and know all this?! A slomo side view will reveal all.

Just my opinion this, others may disagree: Djorko isn't a good example and has an awful serve for a top player. His second serve is dire due to that low elbow...seen him several times live... saw him play Taylor Dent at Wimbledon 2010.

[gzhpcu]

As you attempt the r/drop, are you slackening the grip at the heel of the hand to make entry into the r/drop easier? If not, try it, it might help.

At the beginning at least the grip is loose...



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maybe I tighten up during the trophy pose...

Thanks anyway to all for the suggestions...

[bman]

Nobody even remotely close to 65 years of age could arch their back like Djokovic does and serve decently. Even pros change as they lose flexibility as they age. Agassi is a prime example. His shoulders were practically perpendicular to the ground through 1995; in the second half of his career, the tilt was about halfway between being perpendicular and parallel to the ground.