Djokovic's Forehand: Forward Swing

[John Yandell]

Love to hear what people thought about Djokovic's Forehand Forward Swing!

John Yandell

[stotty]

With regard to Novak's head position, couldn't this be related to which is his dominant eye. On an RPT course I went on recently there was some discussion on the "dominant eye" theory. Don_Budge has touched on the theory a couple of times in the forum. Federer and Borg are looking behind the strings on contact because their dominant eye is the left one. If Novak's dominant eye is his right one, then he wouldn't have to turn his had so much. One imagines the contact point would also differ between left and right eye dominant players, also. This is a new theory for me and I'm not totally familiar with its implications. Don_Budge may have something to add here.

The article really is good, JY. So many things play a part in executing world class strokes. I imagine physical size, height, and pound-for-pound strength are all contributing factors too. Novak is probably a very strong man, stronger than many on the tour, which must have an influence. He seems to able to withstand Nadal's forehand better than anyone...physical strength may play its part in their contests.

[John Yandell]

Really interesting eye theory. Might persue that with a couple of people I know.

[gsheiner]

John,

Great analysis as usual.

A number of things struck me. You mentioned that the djokovic wrist sometimes goes backward on contact and you are, as usual, right. I checked some of the high speed videos and on some of them the wrist goes backwards from around 20-30 degrees at contact back to 90 - the reverse of the way most people would think if the wrist were actively flexing.

This has to be the best proof I've seen for holding the racket loosely as I imagine that if one held a firm wrist the contact wouldn't able to affect the racket that much.

Actually the djokovic wrist action is extraordinary in the high speed video. He starts off extended in the takeback ( I estimate 60-80 degrees), then it goes closer to neutral on the downswing, then it goes back to full extension on the forehand swing, is getting closer to neutral at contact , and then sometimes goes backwards towards 90 again at contact.

I haven't mentioned ulnar and radial deviation here just extension/flexion.


Watching djoko on Tv I am most struck by his incredible trunk rotation. I wonder if this contributes to what I consider one of his best shots which is the sharp angled crosscourt roll on the forehand. This is so lethal and I believe is one of the shots he is killing nadal with. I had a quick look at some of the patterns and it struck me how often Djoko was hitting two forehands in a row ( or a slice serve and then a forehand) to nadal --the second one the sharp angled one, winning the point because he is hitting behind Nadal who is scooting to cover the shot in the other corner.

Enjoy cincinnati.

Glenn

[John Yandell]

Well said about the short angle! And it is a good hypothesis about the relation to the trunk rotation. Makes sense.

And yeah, the loose racket, I also must agree there and that wrist move back is pretty surprising--have seen it with other players as well!

[gsheiner]

It would be interesting to compare the Sampras short cross court forehand with the Djoko short cross court forehand. I believe Sampras hit his by just hitting the outside of the ball so that the ball would veer crosscourt. His body position would still be slightly closed as if he were going down the line. I Imagine that this would be called old school technique.


Djoko hits his because his trunk has rotated so much. Is this the new evolution. Is this teachable? Is it technically or tactically advantageous? I'll leave it to the wiser members for further enlightenment.

[John Yandell]

Yeah me too.

[GeoffWilliams]

Nothing, no comment on the dynamic "throwing" the body at the shot. The extreme shoulder rotation occurs in all the top fh guys, as is their initial preparation, the same: unit turn, with the shoulders facing the side fence, non dominant hand on the frame, pivot made in the feet off split step. The common thing about club players is the lack of dynamic motion in any of their shots, including the serve.

[don_budge]

Technique and Tactics...Patterns Djokovic vs. Nadal

https://www.tennisplayer.net/players/

I will leave it to the technique gurus to sift through all of the nuances of technique because they have done a very thorough job of it...all that I can add is his technique is pretty darn solid. I would like to have a word with regard to how these technique improvements can affect and improve a player’s ability to implement a winnable strategy.

Regards Djokovic's dominant eye...it would be interesting to note if it is his right eye that is dominant.

Some observations from the patterns videos of Djokovic and Nadal:

Nadal is standing back so far to receive the Djokovic serve...and turning his back on Djokovic after wide serves to his backhand. A clear demonstration of an improvement in the service motion and therefore service strategy on the part of Djokovic. He realizes there is a virtual gold mine wide to the Nadal backhand...if he can effectively access it.

Djokovic is going to the Nadal backhand repeatedly on every single stroke during every given point when he is not in position to hit to the Nadal forehand aggressively. When he is playing his backhand down the line it appears that he is trying to establish depth as the determining factor. Even if Nadal manages to run around his backhand to his "feared" inside out forehand, he has been effectively neutralized by Djokovic's depth of shot. When he is playing his forehand to the Nadal backhand, it appears that depth is option number one but he is also using a change in depth, pace and spin to further disrupt Nadal’s balance and comfort...by hitting wide.

After Djokovic has established the tactic that the game is going to be played on the basis of his forehand to the Nadal backhand he is freer to take liberties on the Nadal forehand as Nadal begins to anticipate defending on the backhand side. This is evident on the service game of Djokovic as well. Repeatedly gunning at the backhand, then coming up the forehand side as the element of surprise. Mixing up the location of the service when he is serving to either the backhand and the forehand...one into the body, then one wide or up the middle.

Superior depth from Djokovic due to flatter groundstrokes. Once he has Nadal off balance, Nadal is hitting shorter and shorter. On short returns by Nadal, Djokovic is in position to attack the weaker of the two sides, the backhand. He does so with intelligence, by mixing up the wide angle with the deep bomb into the corner. Again, once he has established this sort of pattern it will open up the Nadal forehand, which he now has the option to attack as well.

Djokovic net points on serve once again demonstrate his resolve to pick on the Nadal backhand by hitting deep serves into the corner forcing one hand returns and spinning backwards recoveries from Nadal.

Whatever technical improvements Djokovic has experienced epiphanies with regard to his strokes are overshadowed with the maturity of his tactics. That being said...technical improvements allow a player more flexibility in their tactics as they have a wider range of possibilities in their shots which is reflected in their ability to implement their strategy.

Clearly, the patterns of points that we have here courtesy of the website allows us to clearly examine the strategy and motives of Djokovic and how improvements to the technique of his service motion, his backhand and probably his forehand as well, have contributed to big time gains in the department of tactics. Djokovic is dissecting Nadal on his service games by first establishing his ability to pull Nadal off the court with his assortment of wide serves. So many times Nadal is seen using one hand on his backhand or spinning around with his back to his opponent in a vain attempt to recover his vantage in the point. This is not a recommended technique...turning your back to your opponent.

It appears that somehow Djokovic has come up with the idea that depth is a key to beating Nadal, particularly when it comes to hitting off his backhand side. He clearly finds that the best way to neutralize an attacking Nadal off the forehand side is to keep him deep...where he is less invincible. He also contols the middle of the court...by never allowing Nadal to get in position on the forehand side of his court to hurt him. This is no accident...it is a tactical decision. Invariably when Djokovic goes wide to the Nadal forehand it is with the intent to hurt him. One of the keys to a winnable strategy is neutralizing the opponents strength and the big strength of Nadal...and perhaps his only overwhelming strength, is the forehand. Another huge factor in sound tactics is to find ways to exploit your opponents weaker side and in Nadal’s case this is definitely his backhand. Djokovic clearly establishes that whenever he is in a position to dictate...the game is going to be played the way he wants it to be played and this would be his strength to Nadal’s weakness, or his forehand to his opponents backhand.

I was trying to make this argument for Federer’s loss to Nadal at the French. My contention was that Roger did not have a winnable game plan based on his relative strengths to his opponent’s relative weaknesses. He must establish that the game is going to be played on the Nadal backhand...ala Djokovic. If you allow Nadal to dictate with his forehand...it is going to most likely be an uphill struggle. But if you effectively carry out a game plan that is predicated by establishing play on the Nadal backhand you will find that the forehand is somewhat neutralized, at least it is not as lethal, and he will make some rather uncharacteristic errors with it as well.

Incredible demonstrations of patterns complemented with the technique resource...John. Well organized. It all adds up to a sound tactical lesson too.

[stotty]

Excellent summary, DB.

I think it is pretty much the type of tactics a lot of players have been trying to do for a long time now against Nadal, but Djokovic is the only one that does it perfectly...even makes it look easy. He seems to have developed an instinctive and precise sense of executing the strategy you explain so well in the thread. No one else has been able to do this. Everyone else (even Federer) is made to play one shot too many against Nadal, yet Djokovic can employ the strategy to the end of the point...time and time again...rally after rally...he seems to have Nadal on a piece of string.

On top of this it is Nadal that looks desperate in many of the rallies, trying to figure a way to out rally Djokovic. The table gets reversed.

The big question for me is how can Nadal now combat Djokovic? What can he do about what Djokovic is doing to him? Fascinating, absolutely fascinating....

[don_budge]

Execution by mimicking...

Absolutely right Stotty...fascinating. All the more fascinating because Nadal is left handed. That alone is probably why it has taken so long for players to figure it out. Plus Nadal has built up a virtual fortress of defense...to mask his liabilities. It reverses everything...but it appears that Djokovic has learned to read things...by looking in the mirror. The completion backwards principle. A must for playing lefties.

For starters Nadal will have to take a page out of Djokovic's book and rework his serve. Djokovic is doing such a good job of dominating his service game and a large part of this appears to be because he now can really take Nadal off the court by swinging it wide and countering with a blast up the middle or crowding into the body, much better service tactics, made possible by some change in his delivery...the first order of business is for Nadal to do the same. He could start by really concentrating on taking his opponents out wide. This is something that he does not excel at and being a left hander it is a natural progression. tennis_chiro thinks that Nadal may of begun his reconstruction already by mimicking Djokovic's forehand.

Second order of business...neutralizing the aggressive play on his backhand side. Now it is a tall order of business because it appears that Djokovic has his number and what is that I hear crashing in the distance...why, it's the feeling of invincibility, like a bubble bursting...Nadal style.

[cburr]

Tactics, two point and a request

Thank you to Mr. Budge for his beautiful tactical analysis which makes such good use of Mr. Yandell's masterful videotaping and setting the table. What a joy. ( I have just educated my kids on who Mr. Budge is, another great pleasure!)

I think that the footage shows Djokovic on offense on all points except for the long point where there is some neutral play. The point of DB's commentary I would emphasize is the variety he emphasizes explaining how Djokovic exploits and attacks Nadal's backhand. I particularly emphasize the use of the sharp crosscourt when in an attacking position; I think that Federer has failed to use this shot against Nadal when on offense. My data for making this claim comes, aside from observation, John Yandell's excellent commentary on the classic Wimbledon final in which he described the statistic that Nadal had considerably more winners than Fed from over 6 feet behind the baseline. When Fed goes on the attack he crushes the ball, Nadal knows it and drops back and so produces those winners.

The other stategic move that Djocovic seems to me to be able to pursue is the taking away of Nadal's comfort play from deep on the forehand side. How often, during the French Open over the years, have we seen Federer push Nadal deep to his forehand only to be frustrated by Nadal's high, superspin forehand to Fed's backhand neutralizing the point. Djocovic is able to move forward to the baseline and take the ball on the rise when Nadal tries this tactic with him; at times he rips a winner crosscourt on the first shot, this because Nadal has to respect Djcovic's ability to go down the line with a flat backhand. As Mr. Budge points out, Djocovic's ability to flatten out with depth is a crucial ingredient to this play. I think Nadal is demoralized by being taken out to the forehand in this way as well as in the way DB points out from this footage.

My request to John Y. is to get footage of points on Nadal's serve game to Djokovic.

I hope I will dream tonight of the greatest one handed backhand of all-time playing Nadal (I speak of course of Mr. Budge's bh) taking the ball early on Nadal's crosscourt superspin forehand from the defensive position (I think Budge will have the same effect as Djocovic's bh), and my hope would be that Roger Federer will appear and study the demonstration and consult with Mr. budge on how he might utilize the shot.

[ten1050]

Eye dominance

Great article on Djokovic's forehand! Just wanted to share some information about eye dominance as it relates to head position. Most right handed players are right eye dominant, about 70 - 80%. I have read that Andre Agassi is left eye dominant. Perhaps Djokovic is also left eye dominant since his head position is similar to Agassi's. As for Federer and Nadal, they may have central dominance with neither eye dominant. If they both share central dominance, they would be in the same small group as John McEnroe.
It would be interesting to study this matter in more detail.

Sincerely,

ten1050

[John Yandell]

Very interesting and maybe we can research the answers at some point.

[jarosdav]

Novak's Forehand article

Very well done and documented. Which leads me to my question or statement.
All I hear on the courts are instructors saying " drop the racquet below the ball"..... in preparation to hit a forehand.

From numerous video's it looks like the racquet may be a "bit" below the ball when starting the forward motion of the forehand, but it looks like it is the forward upward motion of the racquet from staring at waist level that is applying the spin. Forward an dup finishing in the "old method" or somewhat around the left shoulder. Not so much was this "low to high" phrase we commonly hear.

Your opinion on this start "low below the ball" concept.
Thanks,
DJ