Backswings

[stotty]

Haven't heard from Phil for quite some type...shame...a great regular attender of the forum

Thanks for all the tips on shortening backswings. The half volley method and D-B's suggestion of keeping the elbow closer to the body are things I will try out. I have regularly used don's "Asteroid" since discovering it on the website and it is another method that works for. I find this a great way to remove a "stall" in the swing.

The problem with a big backswing is not so much the complication of getting rid of it. I know this can be done and have succeeded in the past. It's that it always wants to rear its head again. As soon as kids get in matches or want to hit more powerfully their swing almost invariably gets bigger.

I think D_B's idea of "pushing back and pulling forward" is a wonderful insight. If I can convey this to the student and they can understand the mechanics and concept of it, it should help a lot.

I think students have to understand the mechanic's of their strokes rather than just carry out instructions. I think getting kids to understand the "pushing back and pulling forward" concept is absolutely key to resolving such a problem. Thanks for this, D_B.

For me, this is the forum at its best when coaches communicate together and help solve a problem.

[tennis_chiro]

Comments

WBC,
I like the half volley idea. The timing drill in my article here works well with no-man's land half-volleys as well as with regular drives and balls out of the air. Angela's Asteroids also works well with a steady diet of deep half-volleys. These things will force the body to find an efficient, usually much shorter backswing.

D_B,
In the same vein, I like your having your young students feed to their fellow players. Great automatic learning. I think somewhere in those articles, I mentioned Jerry Alleyne's drill of having someone hit the ball off the face of the racket without lifting the ball (very difficult with strong grips). That works great for having someone feel that little whip WBC is referring to. I have them start by just trying to hit it into the fence 5 or 10 feet away; then across the net to different locations in the court. Try it yourself and you'll pick up how it works within a couple of minutes.

How can I argue with someone who quotes Bob Rotella and Harvey Pennick. But remember, the breakthrough book for Rotella was "Golf is NOT a Game of Perfect". Neither is tennis. What is it they say, "The perfect is the enemy of the good." Anyway, I loved "The Little Red Book". It must be around here somewhere with 3 or 4 of Rotella's books. He did more tennis in the last few years. But as for Harvey, I used to send messages to Paul, suggesting he tell Pete before a major semi or final to "Take Dead Aim". Short and simple. Didn't matter, but it gave me a nice message to send. It was back in the mid-90's when The Little Red Book was on the best seller lists. Plus we had played a couple of times. I remember Pete putting his drive in the left bunker on the 14th at Shinnecock, about 300 yards out a little uphill. That was a very big drive back in '95.

PS. Anyone heard anything from Phil in Switzerland? I haven't seen a post from him in quite a while.

[worldsbestcoach]

in other words

What I was trying to say, above, was that it is smart to teach tennis players, from Federer and Hingis on down, to hit topspin forehand half volleys as hard as they possibly can. From there, the players (pros and beginners) can learn to hit powerful, consistent topspin forehands with tremendously compact backswings and overall tight technique.

[worldsbestcoach]

it is not genetic

Of course big topspin forehand backswings are not genetic. (Forehand backswings have been inefficiently performed and poorly taught in all decades, past and present -- just in different ways.) Persons of past decades had different kinds of backswings than today's players have, so the reason for the differences is the environment, not inheritance. In America, we are too quick to attribute everything to a genetic reason. The media unquestioningly listens to and passes on information from self-interested press releases and from biased scientists who say "the research shows ..." (even when the research does not show). Then the wrong information and propaganda thus are relayed to an all-too-accepting public.

Licensed Coach, I agree with you about players who could be even better if they tightened up their forehand backswings. Examples in the pros are Dominika Cibulkova, Caroline Wozniacki, & Julia Georges. They would be able to hit harder and also be more consistent if they tightened up their backswings for their forehand topsins. Maybe those players could go to the boxing facility and punch a heavy bag, to learn how to create power from a compact motion. Maybe they should study videos of Derrick Jeter's baseball swing, or Bruce Lee's powerful 1-inch punch.

By the way, I agree that Sharapova has too big of a backswing, but one reason that her racket (on the backswing) can be seen on the "wrong" side of her body is that Maria hits close to all of her forehands with sidespin as opposed to topspin. Robyn Soderling does the same thing. Nadal, Davenport -- the list could go on with players who hit most of the forehands with attempted sidespin.

But, Licensed Coach, players can make major, significant, lasting changes in their tennis techniques in a short amount of time. I realize that most coaches, even the supposed best, might not agree, but tennis has always been and even now is a poorly analyzed, poorly coached sport. In the future, tennis hopefully will progress to a level of coaching that is close to that in track & field, and in golf, for instance. (Not that coaching in those sports is necessarily great, either.)

Hitting a topspin forehand has elements similar to a catapult. Imagine that a giant spit wad could magically stay on the side of a flexible yardstick until you flick the wad from a mostly sideways flick. Imagine the yardstick is also moving forwards on a train track as you give the spit wad a sideways flick from the flexible yardstick. That forward-moving catapult motion is a forehand (for now, forgetting about the topspin).

To flick the spit wad, you do not need a huge backswing. The key stage of the forehand is the flip or flick that is in front of the body. Today's pros too often try to initiate the flip from too far back behind their bodies. Many of today's best pros sometimes make embarassing mistakes because their forehands sometimes look similar to poor golfers who swing "over the top." You can see them trying to inefficiently muscle the racket towards the ball, starting with the racket extended too far behind their bodies.

With a short backswing but good flick, catapult motion, the players could learn to really spank the ball hard, but still control the ball. Of course, the players can use this spit-wad motion to impart heavy topspin also, if they desire.

In one lesson, you could teach players to hit hard topspin forehands with compact backswings. While they stand at the service line, teach players to hit half-volleys with topspin. Be sure that they prepare the racket out in front, as the ball approaches, instead of preparing to the side, or preparing with the racket back. Also, make sure that the players do not blow the shot with a sloppy follow through. Crispness at contact is more important than the follow through, for now. And it is okay to face the net. Getting sideways often destroys the motion. Even when they start facing the net, they will naturally turn their hips and shoulders some, just the right amount, but not too much, hopefully.

The next step would be to have the players hit half volleys from the baseline, to deep into the opponent's court. Finally, tell the players that with their topspin half volleys, they must hit the back fence on the opposite side of the court. In this manner, they will learn to generate power from a compact motion. They will see proof that a proper compact technique can create tremendous force. As a coach, you will see players naturally turning shoulders and hips to help produce power, but the players will not be blowing their shots by purposely, consciously getting sidesays too much.

There are other ways to teach compact backswings that generate appreciable power. The above steps are just one way. In the future, perhaps, I will share other ways.

Don Budge, I have some impressions of the Federer and Hingis videos. In the Fed video, Roger seems to hit his forehand better than he sometimes does. When Roger hits his forehand with somewhat of a half-volley feeling, Roger does better than when Roger's forehand looks too much like Tomas Berdych's. When Roger's forehand gets too wild, it is because it is becoming too much like Berdych's, and not close enough to a powerful half volley motion.

I can see in the Hingis video that Martina takes her left hand off the throat of her racket too early, so that she sometimes loses control of her racket during the forehand swing. If Hingis kept her hand on the throat of the racket longer, then Martina could wait longer before making her stroke. In other words, if Martina kept her free hand on the throat longer, then she could swing all at once with a more explosive forehand, her backswing would be more compact, and she would have even more control on her forehand.

I hate to criticize players as great as Hingis and Federer, but after considerable, careful observation, I have seen some weaknesses in their games, and I see some of that weakness in the videos of here. Viewers can learn not only from the pros' great shots but also from their mistakes and weaknesses. Their examples are on display for all of us to see. From analyzing their games, pro and con, we can improve for the future the level of coaching and playing for this great game of tennis.

[don_budge]

Spot on...

Well said, Don...I did say that the forward swing is "initiated" with a pull...my comments were restricted to the backswing but you have "followed through" with a flourish!

[tennis_chiro]

Push/Pull

***Thanks for sending this to me Stotty...from the deleted thread. It was one of my favorite posts and I was crushed when it disappeared. How's the kid doing by the way? I just want to repost it so I can just copy from tennisplayer.net for my upcoming book. I'm a bottle wannabe. Just kidding!

But at any rate...we did have this discussion before about backswings and it was really helpful to me in the respect that it made me really think about backswings. I really like your concern for the backswing because I think it's of the utmost importance. The emphasis on backswing also became very important in learning how to play golf. When swinging a golf club you begin to understand how necessary it is to get the club in the proper position back in order to go forward. Everything must be in alignment. Over cooking the backswing is going to require some compensating motion on the way forward and this is where issues and problems are created...with those compensating movements. In the golf swing the rhythm is push the club back and initiate the swing with a rhythmic pull. It is safe to say that the same is true for swinging tennis racquets.

The one thing that I want to add to this post is this...the backswing is accomplished with more of a "pushing" effect. That is, at least the motion of the backswing seems to be initiated with push from the opposite side of the body, with the free hand and the shoulders. The forward swing is initiated with a pull. If you are pulling on the backswing it seems to me that it is possible to get a little over enthusiastic and pull that racquet past a point where it can work in coordination with the hip and shoulders going forwards. The other thing too, is that it is so important to get in the proper ready position in order to accomplish this pushing motion. If the player is holding the racquet in a position where the racquet head is too low this may be encouraging a pulling effort on the backswing also. Get the racquet head up in the ready position.

Pulling the racquet back can result in a lot of wasted energy and a swing that may be dominated by an "all arm" motion. These types of swings often break down in match play situations because they are inherently a bit more wild and more difficult to control. When that happens players are naturally reluctant to "swing out" and may resort to pushing.

I feel that the motion and rhythm of the stroke is most natural when the backswing is a push back and the forward swing is a pull forward. In order to make the most efficient pull on the racquet...the feet, hips and shoulders and racquet must be in proper alignment to initiate the action.

Try to emphasis keeping the right elbow somewhat attached to the right hip so that it won't fly away...it may help in limiting the range of the backswing. The backhand backswing is the same reasoning...keep the left elbow tucked onto the left hip.

I really like the idea D_B is putting forward here that you push the racket back and pull the racket head forward. It could be the left side or left hand that pushes the righty's racket back or it could just be the whole body (unit turn) that is pushing the racket back, but it is definitely the case that the swing breaks down when the player starts to push the racket forward. I'm not sure I like the image of the swing being a pull, but rather that once the correct unit turn is completed, the player initiates the swing by pulling the racket head onto the "track" to and through the contact point and on to the target; once the racket head gets on that track, he simply "releases" the swing. The "gravity drop" is also helpful in accelerating the racket head on this "track".

The turn of the hips and shoulders, controlled with the critical "core" strength, is the central force/motor to this movement; in this sense, the racket head is "pulled" along its path by those core muscles; to "push" the racket at this point in the swing is totally destructive of effective mechanics, this is where "muscling" a stroke becomes obvious and counterproductive. Done correctly, this action will whip the racket head into the ball like an ice skater at the end of a "human whip"; the trick is for the "passive hinge of the wrist" to control the motion and allow all the generated force to be expressed directly towards the target as the racket brushes up on the ball (usually in a normal topspin shot; less frequently expressed as sidespin in a slice backhand or maybe to some degree in a volley; and rarely, but as a completely different action when talking about a "chop" backhand slice); imagine that ice skater letting go of the human chain once he/she has achieved a desired speed, ...they simply continue on in a straight line. The wrist, as a passive hinge, allows the momentum and power of the swing to continue on through the contact point towards the target as long as possible, thereby achieving the act of "hitting through the ball".

don

[don_budge]

Additionally...

***Thanks for sending this to me Stotty...from the deleted thread. It was one of my favorite posts and I was crushed when it disappeared. How's the kid doing by the way? I just want to repost it so I can just copy from tennisplayer.net for my upcoming book. I'm a bottle wannabe. Just kidding!

But at any rate...we did have this discussion before about backswings and it was really helpful to me in the respect that it made me really think about backswings. I really like your concern for the backswing because I think it's of the utmost importance. The emphasis on backswing also became very important in learning how to play golf. When swinging a golf club you begin to understand how necessary it is to get the club in the proper position back in order to go forward into your shot. Everything must be in alignment. Over cooking the backswing is going to require some compensating motion on the way forward and this is where issues and problems are created...with those compensating movements. In the golf swing the rhythm is push the club back and initiate the swing with a rhythmic pull. It is safe to say that the same is true for swinging tennis racquets.

The one thing that I want to add to this post is this...the backswing is accomplished with more of a "pushing" effect. That is, at least the motion of the backswing seems to be initiated with push from the opposite side of the body, with the free hand and the shoulders. The forward swing is initiated with a pull. If you are pulling on the backswing it seems to me that it is possible to get a little over enthusiastic and pull that racquet past a point where it can work in coordination with the hip and shoulders going forwards. The other thing too, is that it is so important to get in the proper ready position in order to accomplish this pushing motion. If the player is holding the racquet in a position where the racquet head is too low this may be encouraging a pulling effort on the backswing also. Get the racquet head up in the ready position.

Pulling the racquet back can result in a lot of wasted energy and a swing that may be dominated by an "all arm" motion. These types of swings often break down in match play situations because they are inherently a bit more wild and more difficult to control. When that happens players are naturally reluctant to "swing out" and may resort to pushing.

I feel that the motion and rhythm of the stroke is most natural when the backswing is a push back and the forward swing is a pull forward. In order to make the most efficient pull on the racquet...the feet, hips and shoulders and racquet must be in proper alignment to initiate the action.

Try to emphasis keeping the right elbow somewhat attached to the right hip so that it won't fly away...it may help in limiting the range of the backswing. The backhand backswing is the same reasoning...keep the left elbow tucked onto the left hip.

[don_budge]

From a previous discussion...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/roger-federer/

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/martina-hingis/

An unstable forehand vs. a stable backhand...Why???
Let me preface my comments with this...this is a very impressive and talented girl for the age of eight. That being said let’s examine the problem which appears to be that the forehand is less reliable than the backhand. So the question is...what is it about her forehand technique (backswing) that makes it less stable? If we can identify this, then how do we correct the problem to stabilize the stroke?

With respect to Dyna’s (short for dynamo) forehand there is one aspect of it that I truly like and it just so happens that it is the most critical part of the stroke, in my opinion. I am referring to her “get in position” position...after the backswing and before the forward swing. Without consideration about what has happened before this point in her swing and about what happens afterwards, this is a truly well balanced and dynamic position to be in as she makes her move to the ball. I like the position of her racquet, shoulders and feet. She is in a nice sitting (derriere out, upper body leaning forward) position for balance as well.

While I genuinely admire her position at the point of “get in position” there are some real issues going on before and after...and it is these issues that are probably contributing to her instability and unreliability on her forehand side. Fortunately the issues have some fairly simple remedies...simplify the motion.

OK...let’s try to sort this thing out. From her ready position I think if you dial her grip back just a bit she will be in a better position to initiate her backswing, but I don’t feel this is a big factor at this point. Her problem and instability is in the manner in which she takes her racquet back to “get in position”...and the surprising result of all of her extra rigamarole is that she actually gets herself into perfect position in the video. But of course the ball is being perfectly fed to her each time so that she can perform this miraculous backswing without throwing herself off balance or tying herself into a knot as she begins to unwind going forward.

So...what exactly is she doing? It looks like she initiates her forehand backswing with a lift of both her right hand and the racquet head. Her right hand almost appears to be making a service toss motion...it looks as if you could balance a pizza on it throughout the entire swing. Her left elbow makes a rather large arch before finally settling into position to go forward as well. Too much unnecessary movement that contributes nothing of a positive nature in terms of energy to the ball via her swinging racquet.

Instead of lifting the hand and racquet...I recommend that she push the head of her racquet directly back into position to make her swing. Martina Hingus and Roger Federer both initiate the backswing on the forehand with what appears to be a subtle push with the free hand and at the same time they use their shoulders to accomplish a full unit turn...the racquet arm elbows are relatively stationary and stay relatively close to their bodies. Their wrists are almost immediately in position as they begin their turn to the ball and their wrists will stay in this position until they are in position to go forward with the racquet. Both Hingus and Federer have their racquets in an “L” position in their backswing practically from their ready position to their “get in position”. Notice that neither of them are lifting the racquet head any higher than their head and their right hands are basically waist high throughout their backswing. The height of the backswing may change with the height of the ball to be played but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the backswing has to get bigger...only higher or lower.

The little Dyna has all kinds of funny business going on with her lifting approach to her backswing and one of the most unstable aspects of her backswing is that the racquet head is lagging so far behind her hand and her shoulders that the timing must be awfully good when she transitions to going forward. She makes all of the necessary compensations quite nicely when she is standing in one spot but if she is being moved around the court...it looks as if the foundation of such a backswing might become very shaky if out of position. With the head of her racquet so high in the air if she has any kind of thinking opponent (do eight year olds think tactically?) on the other side of the net they might be looking to exploit such a swing with low balls or short balls.

The best backswings have an ample enough motion backwards in order to generate the most energy going forwards. You don’t hit anything with the backswing. You must get her backswing under control, perhaps in a nice “L” position, so that she can get into her nice “get in position” position so that her forehand “is repeatable under the vast number of possibilities and conditions that a tennis player is due to play their shots”. For a swing to be repeatable the tolerances in the variation are tight and they seem to get even tighter in a close match when nerves get tight and perhaps a little bit of fear creeps into the swing. Statistically speaking you would be well advised to get her to tighten up her three sigma control limits...in order that she can repeat her backswing under any circumstances. Her current method is pretty wild and could easily veer out of control if she is even a bit off balance. Minimize motion to maximize control.

The reason that I asked for a look on the backhand side is because I like to see some commonality in all of a tennis players backswing tendencies. Dyna’s backswing on the backhand is pretty much straight back and straight through. Less can go wrong with such a simple technique and this is probably why she is more stable on the backhand side. It looks complementary if both the forehand and the backhand tend to match. It may make it easier for her if she was to modify both sides to share some similarities on both sides...get her into a modified “L” take away on both sides.

If there is a consistency between all of the backswings in a player’s game, perhaps it is even possible that the tendency to repeat the same motion will have a philosophical grounding eventually as well...an inner rhythm. If a player can relate to sound fundamentals every time they take their racquet back in preparation for a shot...so much the better. A good example of this is the manner in which Federer produces drop shots...his backswing on the forehand looks pretty much the same as his normal full swing and then all of a sudden he is merely passing the racquet head under the ball with a deft touch. His backswing for a forehand volley looks very similar to the initial move he makes in preparation for a groundstroke. Federer’s and Hingus’s backswings look like they share some real similarities throughout their whole respective repertoire of shots.

To prepare little Dyna for a change in weakening her grip somewhat, it may help to get her to practice taking a lot of balls in the air...volleys. I recommend also giving her a lot of practice in the middle of the court and try to encourage her to use a volley like stroke on these balls as well...perhaps practicing for a future net approach game. Teach her to hit under spin from an “L” backswing position...Federer/Hingus style.

One drill that I like to use with a more accomplished player is to have them start on the baseline and using one ball try to do the following without missing, hit a ball and advance forward, hit another ball in the mid-court (either volley or half volley) then advancing to the net to hit a volley or two, then immediately back up into position to hit another mid-court ball then moving backwards to finally hit another ball behind the baseline then immediately going forwards again on the next ball to repeat the process. It’s good to practice moving forwards and backwards as well as to practice moving side to side. This drill is also about the backswing...behind the baseline it is a full backswing and as one moves forward closer to the net the backswing gets shorter and shorter until you are finally at the net, volleying with very little backswing at all. But even with the difference in the length of the backswings there should be some resemblance between all of them.

Your young Dyna shows something very special in her “get in position” position and her ball sense...Stotty. For an eight year old she has fantastic dynamics and it looks like you had a lot to do with that...nice work! You may create more stability in her swing with a modified "L" backswing which will put her in a better position to go forward. But then we must talk about her foot work and her weight transfer. It sounds like a long story...but she is so young and there is plenty of time...it's a lifetime endeavor.

[stotty]

I wanted to sound out the coaches on the forum about how they remedy excessive backswings. I strongly dislike the racket head appearing at the other side of the body at the end of the backswing. I know there are examples on the tour showing that excessive backswings can work (Sharapova) but for many junior players it simply leads to errors and, if anything, a loss of power.

I used to think players were simply "cocking" their wrists back at the end of the backswing slightly more than others, making the racket head more likely to appear on the other side of their body. But when you think about it the wrist on everybody will only cock back 90 degrees or less, making this theory nonsense.

So what are the factors that lead to excessive backswings and more importantly how can it be fixed?

I worked with a player yesterday and employed a feeder to feed balls to my student one at a time. I stood behind the student with a bamboo stick and tipped the head of her racket every time the backswing went beyond the hitting side of her body. She soon became aware of how far to take the racket back...and how much was too far. So great the problem was fixed, right?

Wrong! No matter how many times I do this with players...sometimes over weeks or even months...the problem comes straight back again once they start playing matches...or over time it just creeps back anyway. I can cure it in very young players (under 10) but never in older ones.

Anyone got any magic solutions out there? Does anyone feel it is almost a genetic trait with some players and it's best to leave it be? Why are women more prone it than men? What is the key cause...overturning/pulling back of the hitting shoulder?

I notice it can happen (though less common) on the backhand side too...Borg did it. Does anyone consider a technical no-no on the backhand side as well?

I would appreciate any feedback from experienced coaches on the forum about their feelings on the subject and how they tackle this kind of problem.