The Oscar Wegner discussion at TennisWarehouse...

[julian1]

Open stance for 2H backhand

John brought the issue of an open stance in post #2
Some possibilities are demonstrated in first couple of minutes of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTnjCZr35NI

Some backhands hit from neutral,some from an open stance
A lot of situational decisions.
Very difficult to verbalize any rules of thumb.

[tennis_chiro]

The quintissential "Big Cat"

..., tennis_chiro calls it "stalk the ball like a big cat" (I love that one and envision Gonzales)...

This is exactly what I am talking about.

don

[don_budge]

Tidigt förberedelse...stalking the ball

Ok...now I see what the furor is with Oscar. It's lost in translation. But pity me...trying to translate everything to Swedish. Imagine if I start telling the kids to start stalking...just imagine. Oh yes...tidigt förberedelse. Google translation will specifically give you "early preparation". Oscar apparently calls it stalking and so does "Salzy" Jeff Salzenstein. julian1 calls it "chiming in" (I had never heard that one before), tennis_chiro calls it "stalk the ball like a big cat" (I love that one and envision Gonzales) and bottle says call it whatever you want, but just get your ass in position without damning Oscar Wegner.

Want to know what I call it? Don't care? Ok...here it is anyways. It's a two part deal with me, the king of K.I.S.S. ...or rather Keep It Simple Stupid. With beginners, when they are first learning their forehand with me I teach them to cheat to their forehand side. Over here I teach them to "fuska position" which means cheat in Swedish. Nobody can seem to tell me what the word anticipation is in Swedish. Afterall I know it is going to be a forehand and they know that it is going to be a forehand so why not cheat a bit? I am hopefully teaching them to anticipate as well.

The cheating position is somewhat similar to Jeff's "catch the ball" position and the basis for the stalking analogy I am guessing. He says catch the ball and I say show your strings to the ball. What this does is that it forms the position of the wrist and the grip on the racquet that it should pretty much maintain up until contact with the ball given that the wrist is a living hinge and it will flex and contort somewhat during the course of the swing, but the idea is to early on get the wrist in position to go forwards. Now keep in mind that I am not training world class players all day long and I try to keep it simple. Forgive me Brian Gordon and all of the disciples.

From this "cheating" position one only has to turn the shoulders and the unit turn is completed. I teach my fledglings that one does not always pause in this position, but they can if they have extra time on a high or slow ball they can sort of hold in this position in order to time their swing going forward, but I try to get them to at least pass through this phase every time in order to get that wrist in position and also to keep the left hand on the racquet through the early part of the swing. Too often these little fledglings seem to be running around willy nilly with the racquet arm waving around in one hand as they run to the ball.

Another interesting aspect of this cheating position or "catch the ball" position ala Salzy...is this can also serve as something resembling the position from where you go forward on a volley. Another reason why I teach the volley first...from the cheating position you either go forward or backwards depending upon whether you will play the ball in the air or after a bounce. Curiously enough the first step in learning the volley for my beginners is catching the ball. This is something that I used before the Oscar Wegner videos came to my attention and gave birth to my concept of a couple of guys in Africa someplace still arguing about which one invented the wheel first.

Now here's the punch line...you are going to like this one Jeff. I call this process "measuring the shot". Isn't that just great? Don't get it? See Jeff's video.

http://four5project.com/

[John Yandell]

Much better use of the term...

[tennis_chiro]

Stalking the ball?!

I'm not sure what you guys are referring to, but I use the term, "Stalk the ball" all the time. I'm not familiar with the exact usage by Oscar or Jeff. Most players tend to run at the ball late with too little attention to what they are doing with the racket, and in particular, the racket head. Players tend to run their bellybuttons to short balls and find themselves in poor position at the last minute. I want my players to move as early as possible to intercept the ball and attack it. One of the drills is to ask them to move silently, almost as if they were running on rice paper. The only way that can be accomplished is by being early. I also like to give them the image of "stalking" the ball like a big cat stalking its prey in the jungle, getting ready to pounce at the right time. That big cat places each foot/paw very deliberately so as not to make any sound, and always maintains perfect balance. Remember this is only a visual analogy/metaphor. This says nothing about the left hand holding the racket as you run, etc. The general thrust is to move early and appropriately to put the racket in position to make what I call the second part of the swing (after the unit turn) without being rushed at all. If you have to move to the ball, whether it is one step or five, by the time you complete that/those step/s, you must have completed the unit turn and you should have arrived at a point where you are able to execute a timely swing at the ball. In fact, I advocate a unit turn that includes some movement of the racket back from its initial ready position, basically to where the racket head is just off the right shoulder. If you are moving very wide and time is at a greater premium, I want you to reach out behind the oncoming path of the ball, so that you can "capture" the ball you have been "stalking". Usually the footwork is right-left-right for an open stanced forehand, but to me, this concept is not footwork specific. It is just a way to envision being early and in great position to execute your shot the way you want to as opposed to the way your opponent is trying to force you to execute it.

Comments, please!

don

[John Yandell]

Thanks.

[bman]

John,
click the link at the bottom and go down to lesson 5..."Stalking the ball". I actually dont disagree with what he is saying here...he is really just talking about keeping the left hand on the racket initially when you move and keeping your elbow and hand away from the body. But in lesson 3, I think he is dealing more with the footwork patterns Oscar associates with stalking

Also look at lesson 004 on the backhand -- I do disagree with what he is teaching there. Check that one out. I think it would be disastrous to teach that to your average player. I think this is sort of "stalking the ball" applied to the backhand, though they never really use that term. Anyway, the player looks confused.

Overall I think his stuff is great, but this video is one disagreement.

Here's the link: http://four5project.com/

[John Yandell]

BMan,

Huh. I haven't seen all of the forehand solution--wasn't involved in that one... Jeff had/has a huge forehand though and he was not a stalker.

Not sure "loose" is the right word for Oscar though Bottle however you and I can agree to disagree even if Oscar can't...

[bottle]

Objection!

Nah. Just have more imagination about the way you run. You could use a modified Chris Lewit forehand preparation from his Tennis Technique Holy Book. That combines unit turn with getting racket and arm and everything quite far back--in the Federer norm area-- and I don't think you'll have to do any additional pointing with left hand at right fence. Then imagine that you're an octopus with each suction cup on your left elbow and forearm a small radar dish which will give you the composite optical image in the eyeballs of a bluebottle fly calculating trajectory, time of arrival, and spin.

It's funny, after so many years, still finding myself wanting to defend Oscar when he's never really needed defending. When I looked into his work, I found that, yeah, he was adamant about his stalking idea, but anyone who really wants to dispute it ought to object to the idea of hand to eye coordination as something useful in tennis.

What I remember is Oscar's complete openness to and encouragement of the individual player's own invention of whatever backswing he uses (maybe just a little drop-- you make it up) after he "stalks." He was and remains much looser in some of his educational ideas than a majority of the teaching pros I encounter-- sorry!

[John Yandell]

Right! It is a really strange point to hang your theory of the forehand on. The number one problem with club players--you see thousands of examples if you observe much--is late preparation and players standing around in a fog until the ball bounces on their side. "Stalking" is the perfect concept to reinforce this and guarantee your forehand won't ever improve.

[julian1]

Stalking

John,

Actually, if you look at Jeff's Forehand Solution course, he makes a fairly big deal out of "stalking the ball" on the forehand, not just the volley.

But, the irony is, I am not sure that what he means by stalking is quite what Oscar means. Jeff just wants to make sure you don't take the racket back immediately...or, in other words, you keep the left hand on the racket until at least the ball bounces. I think Oscar, when looking at the youtube video, basically advocates no backswing at all.

I think Jeff also calls on the "stalking" idea when he advocates running to the ball without your hips turned much. I think this is a tough concept to teach to lower level players. It even confuses me a bit when I try it.

Let me chime in,

both learning and teaching stalking are VERY DANGEROUS things to do.
It will destroy any attempt to generate power.
But as everyone is saying "it is a free country".

Switching gears:
playing against 4.0 NTRP with a stalking forehand could be quite a challenge
because of problems with reading his/her swing

[bman]

John,

Actually, if you look at Jeff's Forehand Solution course, he makes a fairly big deal out of "stalking the ball" on the forehand, not just the volley.

But, the irony is, I am not sure that what he means by stalking is quite what Oscar means. Jeff just wants to make sure you don't take the racket back immediately...or, in other words, you keep the left hand on the racket until at least the ball bounces. I think Oscar, when looking at the youtube video, basically advocates no backswing at all.

I think Jeff also calls on the "stalking" idea when he advocates running to the ball without your hips turned much. I think this is a tough concept to teach to lower level players. It even confuses me a bit when I try it.

[don_budge]

Stinkers...

No skunks in Sweden? Really? Having been to that country, perhaps it is too beautiful for skunks to live there.

Oh there are skunks Kyle...just not the four legged kind.

[klacr]

don_budge,

No skunks in Sweden? Really? Having been to that country, perhaps it is too beautiful for skunks to live there. Guess you'll never have the good fortune of getting sprayed and bathing in hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and dish soap. You're missing out db!

Great story about the Rouge plant in Dearborn. Good ol' Southeast Michigan. The Motor City. Bustling Industry. Those were the days.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

Revenge...the only revenge in life is success!

The only revenge in life is success...an old friend of mine told me this in the middle of the graveyard shift one night at the old Rouge Plant in Dearborn, Michigan. The same infernal place that Ferdinand Celine somehow found himself working at in the 1920's or sometime whereabouts. What a wonderful piece of wisdom that turned out to be as it turns out.

The human beast somehow will find itself sinking to new low's trying to undercut the enemy. Ironically, in the end, finding that instead of exacting the equalizer to the enemy he has been sucked down to their level, unwittingly and sinking to new personal lows. Revenge is an impulse that must be fought at all costs because no good can come of it. Many a conflict has been blown up way out of proportion trying to exact the coup de grace which never comes. Most of the time conflicts are a bottomless pit unless one tries to emerge and rise above. Don't fall into their trap.

I must relate the following story and as usual with me it involves a woman. I was involved with a lady with whom I had shared a special moment in time when we were young...and innocent. We met again later in life and of course life had cured us of our innocence but little else. She had been romantically involved with this Ivy League type who was a very successful and distinguished kind of guy. We happened to have had the same name. The story goes that she couldn't make up her mind...Ivy League clean cut...or me. Well the final straw came when my mother saw the two of them dining out and being cozy in some fancy restaurant in Detroit. That was enough for me.

Right out of a Dale Carnegie scenario...I recognized that this little story had the potential to go south in a hurry. A recipe for trouble. A couple of bulls butting heads a real possibility. Well thankfully I saw an opening...for real revenge. I made this guy my friend, he was a member of the same club and not only that I taught him how to play tennis. I left her in the cold and she took it hard...as she should have. Instead of escalating the incident I made short and neat work of it and came out smelling fresh as a daisy. I took the high road...to success. That being said...I have to constantly remind myself when that impulse for revenge rears its ugly head.

I will never forget what that guy told me in the middle of the night when my fellow workers were torturing me over a matter of ethics that in time proved me overwhelmingly right...the only revenge in life is success. I eventually became manager of the department and my success was my revenge. Of course they only hated me worse and doubled their efforts. I only stuck around to organize that department to the last infinitesimal detail. The place was a work of art when I was done with it and I received a lot of recognition from my "superiors". At the perfect moment I disappeared into the woods of Sweden never to look back at that infernal place...and the skunks that inhabited it. Just like good old Ferdinand...he would of been so proud of me.