Doing Your Own High Speed Video Analysis Simply and Inexpensively

[John Yandell]

I think the manual settings don't apply at the higher frame rates. If you want to shoot higher then you are stuck with auto.

We ordered one of these: JVGCPX1001GC-PX100 Full HD Everio Camcorder



And ended up sending it back because of the shutter limitations.

[tennis_chiro]

You are correct!

I think the manual settings don't apply at the higher frame rates. If you want to shoot higher then you are stuck with auto.

We ordered one of these: JVGCPX1001GC-PX100 Full HD Everio Camcorder



And ended up sending it back because of the shutter limitations.

You're right. I just checked. When I go to the high speed recording mode (300 fps), it tells me I still have manual controls on, but when I go into the menus, the shutter speed and all the manual adjustments are no longer available. But you can shoot in 60p and still have access to the shutter speed controls. That's 60 full frames per second. But 60p will not play back in QuickTime. You'll have to process it through something else, so we are essentially back to the same place!

don

[jasonfrausto]

I think the manual settings don't apply at the higher frame rates. If you want to shoot higher then you are stuck with auto.

We ordered one of these: JVGCPX1001GC-PX100 Full HD Everio Camcorder



And ended up sending it back because of the shutter limitations.

Well, that plan is out the window I guess! Thanks for the info.

[John Yandell]

Something will break eventually. But for now it's discontinued casios...

[tennis_chiro]

What settings do you use?

Something will break eventually. But for now it's discontinued casios...

John, it seems to me you have the same EF20 Casio that I do. What manual settings do you use? What is the minimum shutter speed you need to get decent clear shots? What can you get away with in lower light conditions?

thanks,
don

[John Yandell]

I have the FH 25.

Indoors you can usually get 120 frames with a shutter of around 1/750 opening the lens all the way and also bumping to iso all the way up.

That's the shot in the article.

[stotty]

The Holy Grail

It's a bit like finding the Holy Grail this. You see, I want a manual shutter that operates when filming in high speed mode AND a powerful zoom. The Canon EOS Rebel T3i (EOS 600D) would be fine but it only comes with a 7.5 optical zoom. Other cameras have the zoom but not the manual shutter...nightmare. I guess a bloke like John must have a handful of cameras for different jobs...but I want to hit all the specs with just one camera.

Many camera's have specs that show a manual shutter, but the specs don't reveal whether the manual shutter becomes disabled when shooting using high speed. You just have to phone and ask.

I am preparing a blanket email to send to all the manufacturers of cameras and camcorders that will ask all the relevant questions. If there is anything out there, rest assured Stotty will find it.

[jeffreycounts]

It's a bit like finding the Holy Grail this. You see, I want a manual shutter that operates when filming in high speed mode AND a powerful zoom. The Canon EOS Rebel T3i (EOS 600D) would be fine but it only comes with a 7.5 optical zoom. Other cameras have the zoom but not the manual shutter...nightmare. I guess a bloke like John must have a handful of cameras for different jobs...but I want to hit all the specs with just one camera.

Many camera's have specs that show a manual shutter, but the specs don't reveal whether the manual shutter becomes disabled when shooting using high speed. You just have to phone and ask.

I am preparing a blanket email to send to all the manufacturers of cameras and camcorders that will ask all the relevant questions. If there is anything out there, rest assured Stotty will find it.

Do you have one of the discontinued Casio's John mentions in the article? They would do everything you need - just need to buy it used though.

[stotty]

Do you have one of the discontinued Casio's John mentions in the article? They would do everything you need - just need to buy it used though.

Thanks, jc, I am considering this. It's just a shame the latest cameras don't have manual shutters because they are loaded with stuff the older Casio's don't have.

[John Yandell]

Yeah but the new stuff doesn't really add that much. The idea is to see strokes frame by frame in shuttered high speed video...filming matches is something else and you don't need high speed...

[jeffreycounts]

Thanks, jc, I am considering this. It's just a shame the latest cameras don't have manual shutters because they are loaded with stuff the older Casio's don't have.

I have the original EX-F1, but if I had known they were going to discontinue it and never add manual shutter again to their other cameras I would have bought three of them. Such a shame that this incredible camera is discontinued.

[boxer]

can I ask about work flow??

With so many experts in this thread, I almost hesitate to step in but if I may, I'd like to ask about workflow.

I'm lucky enough to have an EX-FH100 in the family and it does capture pretty well -- up here in the PacNW we're indoors most of the time so low light and all but if you don't mind a bit of grain you can see what's going on.

My questions are more to do with best practices for using the camera and court time.

I did once get to play with a Dartfish set up. There you can get a remote control that will set the camera into record mode on command and then the capture the raw footage direct to a PC so you have instant playback so long as you have a laptop and a firewire cable handy.

By contrast, what I can get with the Casio is much clearer -- high frame rate and high shutter speeds really make for better visibility, especially for serves which is my particular interest (...ahem, challenge ). But on the other hand, the tiny screen is pretty difficult for on the spot feedback and downloading to a laptop is sort of laborious (pull the card or cable up). And of course there's no remote so for me working alone I get almost more footage of walking back and forth to the camera to operate it than anything else.

I guess what I'm wondering is if anyone has tips or tricks for best practices using the equipment on court as one is trying to work on some technique aspect. In my case I'm just joe amateur working by myself but it would probably even help to understand the steps and process people use with more than one pair of hands -- perhaps there's something I can adapt there.

Cheers,

Mark.

[seano10s]

camera workflow

Boxer -

It sounds like w/ all your walking, you're using a tripod. With the fh100, I just hold it in hand and shoot. When I have the video I want, I attach the USB cord and download it to my laptop, that's courtside. I've previously downloaded the Casio Digital Camera software, that came w/ the camera, and the video I have shot is loaded in less than 1 minute.
To view the footage, I use V1 Sports (very inexpensive but excellent) and can view the video, draw lines, determine angles, use circles etc. I can also use a split screen or even overlay 2 subjects. I have accumulated a nice pro stroke library, as well as, student library. With the ability for students to view their strokes, use split screen or overlay, it is an amazing teaching tool to compare your students w/ themselves or the pro's.

[boxer]

Thanks for the reply!

I should perhaps have been clearer -- I'm trying to watch myself with the camera so hand holding it won't do it when I don't have a helper -- yes, I'm using a tripod most of the time

I guess I need to go buy a USB cable for the camera -- it's a non-standard socket it seems. Part of my frustration doing things on court is that right now I have to remove the SD card from the slot on the bottom to move video to the laptop but that's blocked by the screw-in tripod mount so it's a big fuss to do that. So I've mostly been watching the small screen playback on the camera but it's less fluid to control and small imagery for my aging eyeballs.

Thanks also for the V1 pointer. Hadn't found that -- as you say, looks very economical. I notice also that their site offers a USB "webcam" style camera that can do 100FPS -- that doesn't sound like a lot but combined with apparently very VERY fast shutter speeds that rate might be enough to see most of what counts(?). $800 though.

I also saw similar camera performance claims here: http://www.golfcoachsystems.com/stor...undles.htm.php for perhaps a shade less cash. I wonder what the experts think of using this type of camera versus the regular cameras that capture footage that you download later. Seems like the latter would be needed anyway if you are filming pro's at a tournament but the webcam deals might work better for instant playback on court for coaching scenarios??

I've also been playing with a demo of Motion Pro (http://www.motionprosoftware.com/) -- one of the attractions to me there is that it seems to have a hands off mode where you can set the software to cycle between recording and playback -- set it into record, hit a shot or two, stop and review on the laptop, rinse repeat. I was thinking about that as a means to taking the download/card shuffling element out of the mix to get more time hitting and reviewing per unit wall clock time (if you see what I mean).

Anyone have experience or comment on trying to use webcam type cameras with capture/playback software as a useful self-coaching thing??

[FWIW, I'm a tech industry person by day so all the camera/computer stuff is easy for me and I have access to useful toys in that regard. It's the tennis part that's the tricky bit for me!! I'm definitely more "mechanic" than "magician" being an engineer by training -- hence my fascination with this topic ]

[jasonfrausto]

Thanks for the reply!

I should perhaps have been clearer -- I'm trying to watch myself with the camera so hand holding it won't do it when I don't have a helper -- yes, I'm using a tripod most of the time

I guess I need to go buy a USB cable for the camera -- it's a non-standard socket it seems. Part of my frustration doing things on court is that right now I have to remove the SD card from the slot on the bottom to move video to the laptop but that's blocked by the screw-in tripod mount so it's a big fuss to do that. So I've mostly been watching the small screen playback on the camera but it's less fluid to control and small imagery for my aging eyeballs.

Thanks also for the V1 pointer. Hadn't found that -- as you say, looks very economical. I notice also that their site offers a USB "webcam" style camera that can do 100FPS -- that doesn't sound like a lot but combined with apparently very VERY fast shutter speeds that rate might be enough to see most of what counts(?). $800 though.

I also saw similar camera performance claims here: http://www.golfcoachsystems.com/stor...undles.htm.php for perhaps a shade less cash. I wonder what the experts think of using this type of camera versus the regular cameras that capture footage that you download later. Seems like the latter would be needed anyway if you are filming pro's at a tournament but the webcam deals might work better for instant playback on court for coaching scenarios??

I've also been playing with a demo of Motion Pro (http://www.motionprosoftware.com/) -- one of the attractions to me there is that it seems to have a hands off mode where you can set the software to cycle between recording and playback -- set it into record, hit a shot or two, stop and review on the laptop, rinse repeat. I was thinking about that as a means to taking the download/card shuffling element out of the mix to get more time hitting and reviewing per unit wall clock time (if you see what I mean).

Anyone have experience or comment on trying to use webcam type cameras with capture/playback software as a useful self-coaching thing??

[FWIW, I'm a tech industry person by day so all the camera/computer stuff is easy for me and I have access to useful toys in that regard. It's the tennis part that's the tricky bit for me!! I'm definitely more "mechanic" than "magician" being an engineer by training -- hence my fascination with this topic ]

I've been a MotionPro/MotionView user for years. I would highly recommend MotionView. Very affordable, the version I have (Elite) allows for analysis of 8 videos at once, but the most I typically use is 4. David Hill (owner) is also great in answering any questions and the price is excellent. Link below.

http://www.allsportsystems.com/store_images/store.htm.php