2013 BNP Paribas Open...Indian Wells, CA

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  • hockeyscout
    replied
    Don. grips are pretty DARN important in controlling a hockey stick. Even more-so then tennis. Their ain't much room for error with a hockey stick. And, to shoot a puck in the top corner of a hockey net with a wrister, slapper, backhand ect, takes 5000 hours of development. So, you may be underestimating how grips work in hockey. It's mind blowing complex. Yes, I agree, grips are important, but come on, lets be serious, tennis grips are so simple a monkey could do it.

    However, at a young age the worst thing I think you could do as a coach put a kid into grips! It is best in my opinion to take a long term approach, and let the young person "feel" out the process, and see what works best for them. Let the kid be BAD, BAD and worse, to get to good. Yes, I agree, one should learn all the grips, yes, I do not disagree with you, however, as I said again I'm against force feeding it like is so commonly done in the tennis industry. I think many players use many different kinds of grips, for many different reason's, it'a a creative process and the last thing a young one needs is someone interfering and advising what will work, and won't work. With that said, I might be in a different situation then a regular tennis coach working with a kid who has different learning values, independence, goals, aspirations, wants and needs.

    I've got confidence in my eager beaver, and I think she'll make the right decisions, do a good job running her ship and find what is best suited to her style. She knows the grips obviously (again, it ain't complex like hockey's), and I am encouraging her to try everything, every shot, play, play, play and do what is best for her, and be as creative as possible.

    Anyways, I guess you need a lot of time and patience for my approach, and hey, I've got that. What's the rush? I got a huge facility here, and guess what, no one ever goes to the place, and we can do whatever the heck we want. We blast skrillex loud, and play! By the way, I should write about that science on here on day, and how music can benefit training by shutting down certain parts of the brain you don't want activated in the learning process but I will save that for another day.

    Now Don Budge, I do respect everything you say, however, my vision is to teach my kid to learn the value of being inventive, doing it the hard way, learning through trial and error, teaching like a mamma bear teaches her baby dear to hunt and just going with the flow. The playground approach, and unfortunately this model in sports is being forgotten, and based on what you say about the current state of the sport I think that is the reason why. The golden nugget I found in a research paper written about Bolletierri's early days at IMG talked about the grips, and he admitted he didn't know much at the time in that regards, and he was successful because of it because kids were allowed to be individuals without conformity, or trying to change them.

    I understand the game is a lot more complex, and I do acknowledge coaching plays a part in an athlete being developed. However, I think a future champion in any field needs to be nurtured to be independent, think for themselves, inquisitive, highly analytic and praised for their ingenuity. One day, my kids will need to find mentors in life, and if they think differently, they'll learn better and be able to take better advantage of other people's knowledge. I found it interesting one tennis coach once said he was always worried to say something to Boris Becker, because he knew Boris Becker knew EVERYTHING about the game, and you'd better give him a 110% well thought out tip - plan or strategy or he'd run your ass out of town in two seconds. That's important for athletes (and every young person), to feel empowered, and to believe they are driving the bus.

    Actually that was today's lesson, flow like water into your shots! Make it beautiful! Play, play, play! Bad shot? Why do you think it was bad? Great shot? What went right? How did it feel? How can you make it better? She mentioned something about wanting to improve the backhand, and I just said, hell I don't know, figure it out here on your own, go home, watch youtube and tennisplayer.net and play, play and play with it, and make it your own.

    I had a kid once tell me at a hockey camp -- "You know their is always some coach or parent who ruins it for me." And you know, he made sense to me, the best times for me were on the pond playing with buddies with no coaches, no systems and no technique. We learned because we wanted to do it. So, that's my end system, and in fact, my lesson yesterday to my daughter and the 13 year old boy who came yesterday was simply this, "Me, daddy, and the hitting sparing partner we have (a kid who's ranked top 1500 in the world) are going to leave the court. I could care less what you two do when the three of us watch you. What is important is what you two do here right now when we walk away. Its about you two, and I hope you two love tennis, and are able to push each-other to new and improved heights. You may think you can fool me, fans, coaches, sponsors, teachers, and you will, and many have, however, when the lights go out at the end of the day, it'll be you their with yourself, and you will know what you put into it today, for you. Both of you are smart enough to know what you need to work on, and if you don't you can always ask on your own. Bye." Anyways, they worked hard, and then the hitting dude came out and beat the hell out of them in some short matches, and we asked them why this happened, got our answers, left them alone to play again, came back, played again, and then we all went for lazer tag and ran them into the ground

    In a way I guess I am lucky I am a parent with the opportunity, age and freedom to have this sort of "educational" program in place with the young ones (I have two now). Glad I did not have kids at 20 to 25 when I was chasing dreams! I have never run out of time with my older kid, or had to be in a rush to do anything except spend time, and hopefully knock on wood, that will continue!
    Last edited by hockeyscout; 03-11-2014, 11:00 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Since I don't trust what I or anyone else sees when they look at John McEnroe's playing grip (one grip for all shots according to JM), I tend to go with what he himself says in YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS...that his big knuckle, if he were a right-hander, would be on 2.5 in the TennisPlayer grip system. (John McEnroe of course uses words different from these to take his reader to the 2.5 pointy ridge.)

    That grip is actually on the eastern forehand side of a continental and works great for me-- well better for me than a continental-- in hitting Rosewallian backhand slice. (THIS IS WHAT I ACTUALLY KNOW AND THEREFORE BUILD FROM.)

    Am I correct in placing JM's big knuckle on that pointy ridge? Possibly not but most likely so. And Ellsworth Vines sees many players of his age with their grip precisely there, many more surely than I ever suspected. He calls this grip "Australian."

    Two other big questions in my mind are, 1) whether arm is bent or straight since straight closes racket face more according to Ray Brown of Ray and Becky Brown instructional fame and 2) whether the wrist is frequently curled in a convex way per JM or Arthur Ashe-- a curled wrist will close racket beyond ordinary preconception about a continental or anything else.

    Right now I am fascinated by WBTC's (Bill's) perception, similar to mine but maybe even more provocative, that J. Donald Budge's uncurled grip was weak combined with a swing similar to the modern 1htsbh's we best know.

    In what configuration was Don Budge's hand then? We're more confident in knowing where his thumb was. But routine sleuthing or historical research is not the point.

    What works or could work makes somebody feel alive.
    Last edited by bottle; 03-11-2014, 08:05 AM.

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  • don_budge
    replied
    Tennis Grips 101...hockeyscout and John McEnroe's continental based game

    Originally posted by hockeyscout
    (I absolutely deplore anyone teaching grips, as I come from hockey, and we never, ever, never do that for a variety of reasons)
    Coming from a true hockeyscout...grips are absolutely one of the most fundamental aspects of hitting a tennis ball. The grip is the conduit from which all of the energy or a player's efforts are transformed into the tennis ball via the racquet. I strongly urge you reconsider this statement if for only the sake of that dear little rascal...your daughter. Perhaps you would like to take my course on tennis grips...Tennis Grips 101.

    One should learn all of the grips on all of the possible shots. The permutations and combinations are infinite. Why? In order to understand the tactical possibilities and all of the ramifications. Tennis is not hockey. But you knew that...didn't you? Tennis isn't called tennis for nothing...even though to a tennis player "love means nothing".

    Tennis is truly a unique proposition. Perhaps the closest simile that I can imagine from hockey is hopefully the impression is that the player is gliding to the ball on a pair of skates. There...how was that? But grips...that is a whole different story. At the very least a chapter in itself. Teach that little precocious darling to play eastern, western and continental. Teach her two hands on either side of her...forehand and backhand. Most importantly...the perfect service motion. That would be some feat in the age of the prototypical ATP Forehand, two hand backhand and random, whimsical service motions. But who could teach her that? Three guesses and the first two don't count.

    Here are a couple of discussions about one particular grip...the continental. You probably haven't heard much discussion of this grip lately...but that doesn't mean that it is not worth discussing or investigating...or that it doesn't exist. At least I didn't think so...and it was discussed at great length much to the chagrin of some. To the furthering of our tennis education to others.





    Last edited by don_budge; 03-11-2014, 11:34 AM. Reason: for clarity's sake...

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  • don_budge
    replied
    The Ukraine...the real story?

    Originally posted by klacr
    Dolgopolov was hitting big. 99% of the time. Once in a while he'd try a drop shot which Nadal would run down and hit a winner off of but mostly he jumped launched himself into every shot, whole game was red lining and he was not afraid to litter the stat sheet. No obvious patterns of play. Went after Nadal backhand and went after Nadal forehand, he didn't care, gave Rafa no rhythm. Pretty confident and inspirational performance from Dolgopolov. Played with lots of positive emotions at the right time. He won this match for Ukraine.

    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton
    Inspiring tennis. But if he won this for the Ukraine...which Ukraine? The Hammer is Falling in Kiev...in Crimea. Caught between a rock and a hard place. Another line in the sand. Meddling in other parts of the world. When will they ever learn? Never...that's my guess. The Hammer will fall first. Cold War...redux.
    Last edited by don_budge; 03-11-2014, 04:08 AM.

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  • klacr
    replied
    Originally posted by licensedcoach
    Condolences about T-Bird, Klarc. I think a key difference between him and the Big Four is movement. The Big Four just move so well that it is major a contributing factor that separates them from the rest of the pack. They can salvage rallies others would lose by incredible defending...and they always get in position so well when they are dominating rallies...amazing.
    Can't argue with those points Stotty. You're right. When I see Berdych in rallies where he is on the defense, I get a sinking feeling in my stomach. I don't expect him to turn the defense into offense like I see from Djokovic or Nadal.
    But he's a hard worker and I know he's willing to improve that aspect of his game. I'll see him in Miami and try to pass along hat advice to his coach who is well aware of Tberd's shortcomings. Good news is he has plenty of rest now for Miami. Time to recharge the batteries and play some great tennis in Key Biscayne during the day and have a great time in South Beach during the night. And there are many places to have a great time in South Beach

    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton

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  • klacr
    replied
    Originally posted by don_budge
    Did anyone see the match? I am very interested in Dolgopolov's tactics against Nadal. Dolgopolov has the reputation of being a go for it all type player but I have seen him on occasion play some rather cagey tennis when he is outgunned. One match in particular that stands out in my memory is one that he played against Djokovic...he had Djokovic pretty neutralized on the backhand side by playing a mixture of slice with the drive.

    I wish that I would have seen that match...it would probably have shed some light further on how to take Nadal out of his game and to make him play a game that he prefers not to play. Or maybe his back was still bothering him and it had nothing to do with Dolgopolov at all. This is more likely the case...according to Nadal.
    Dolgopolov was hitting big. 99% of the time. Once in a while he'd try a drop shot which Nadal would run down and hit a winner off of but mostly he jumped launched himself into every shot, whole game was red lining and he was not afraid to litter the stat sheet. No obvious patterns of play. Went after Nadal backhand and went after Nadal forehand, he didn't care, gave Rafa no rhythm. Pretty confident and inspirational performance from Dolgopolov. Played with lots of positive emotions at the right time. He won this match for Ukraine.

    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton

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  • stotty
    replied
    Originally posted by don_budge
    Did anyone see the match? I am very interested in Dolgopolov's tactics against Nadal. Dolgopolov has the reputation of being a go for it all type player but I have seen him on occasion play some rather cagey tennis when he is outgunned. One match in particular that stands out in my memory is one that he played against Djokovic...he had Djokovic pretty neutralized on the backhand side by playing a mixture of slice with the drive.

    I wish that I would have seen that match...it would probably have shed some light further on how to take Nadal out of his game and to make him play a game that he prefers not to play. Or maybe his back was still bothering him and it had nothing to do with Dolgopolov at all. This is more likely the case...according to Nadal.
    I didn't see it. I was hoping you had. My son may have recorded it. I'll check it out if he has.

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  • don_budge
    replied
    Nadal vs. Dolgopolov

    Did anyone see the match? I am very interested in Dolgopolov's tactics against Nadal. Dolgopolov has the reputation of being a go for it all type player but I have seen him on occasion play some rather cagey tennis when he is outgunned. One match in particular that stands out in my memory is one that he played against Djokovic...he had Djokovic pretty neutralized on the backhand side by playing a mixture of slice with the drive.

    I wish that I would have seen that match...it would probably have shed some light further on how to take Nadal out of his game and to make him play a game that he prefers not to play. Or maybe his back was still bothering him and it had nothing to do with Dolgopolov at all. This is more likely the case...according to Nadal.

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  • don_budge
    replied
    Round of 16...it gets interesting; nausea and morning sickness

    Originally posted by licensedcoach
    Condolences about T-Bird, Klarc. I think a key difference between him and the Big Four is movement. The Big Four just move so well that it is major a contributing factor that separates them from the rest of the pack. They can salvage rallies others would lose by incredible defending...and they always get in position so well when they are dominating rallies...amazing.
    There is a real element of truth in this Kyle. Watching Tomas Berdych in the Final at Dubai against Federer I kept envisioning Berdych with a one handed backhand and guess what? He was entirely different player. The two hands inhibits his tactical choices and also a point that Stotty makes...salvaging rallies. Just a thought...pass it along to him in Miami.

    Goodbye FafaPhooey. Life goes on and so will the 2014 BNP Paribas Open. Everyone gushes about what a great sport this impostor is yet I am still reading his pathetic crying about the loss to Wawrinka at the Australian. He never should have uttered one word about it. Not one. Be a man about it...pathetic million dollar cry baby. Get a real job...then we will hear the real bitching begin.

    His loss is the tournaments gain. Everyone is here...or at least they were. They are disappearing though at the rate of one every match. Winners and losers...it's a fine line. The round of sixteen...the line of demarcation. One more round and the men will have separated from the boys. This round is always a dogfight...time to step up and be a man about it.

    So it is what it is. But looming in the bottom half are a couple of matches of interest...Grigor Dimitrov vs. "Ernesto" Gulbis and Dominic Thiem vs. Jean Benneteau. Grigor and "Ernesto" have played twice in their careers. Twice in the last month as it is. Gulbis won in Rotterdam and Dimitrov won in Acapulco. Bets anyone? It's best of three at this point. Depending upon which Gulbis shows up...I am taking Dimitrov based on his future earnings potential and his classic game look modeled after one Roger Federer. But it's true...Grigor has made his game his own. He no longer is a Roger Federer wannabe...he's his own man and he is beginning to really "believe" in himself. Otherwise...it should be a dogfight if both show up ready to go. Then they must be ready for another fight...R. Bautista Agut looming in the next round. Another player showing signs of life.

    Just one more match of interest before the real party starts in the quarters. Dominic Thiem defeated Gilles Simon after coming through the qualifiers and now he is faced with the match of his career against an opponent that couldn't have been better hand picked for him. Julian Benneteau has just defeated Jo-Wilfred Tsonga and should challenge Thiem on every level but if the adrenalin is flowing in all the right places Mr. Thiem could be looking at an opponent in the next round that could be beatable. This may be the coming out tournament for Dominic. Why not? He's done his homework. He's got an offbeat coach in his corner...someone who believes in not only himself but his protege too. He doesn't think of himself as offbeat...he's just being himself. A rare individual these days...with no regard to what others think. No need for a second opinion here. His compass is always pointed in the right direction...due north.

    I'm back from the dead. A thirty hour puke-fest. I'm reeling...but I am back from the dead. As I write this I am somewhere betwixt and between. Thirty hours of nausea. I once translated a research paper on morning sickness and it left a terrible impression on me. Some women have morning sickness nonstop for the entire term of their pregnancy. Childbirth. Now that is one tough "sport". Fortunately men do not have to "man up". We just stand around looking helpless. Women really know how to take the pain. Plus they put up with us. Thirty hours of it and I was tossing in the towel. Phew!
    Last edited by don_budge; 03-11-2014, 12:39 AM. Reason: for clarity's sake...

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  • hockeyscout
    replied
    Originally posted by tennis_chiro



    I think HockeyScout should love this stuff. I want to know what the technology is of the foot and running mechanics he is referring to about Kournikova.

    don
    Basically, with Ana, watch her at 10, and you'll see she's knifing badly, rolling the ankles outward (supination). The first thing that goes is the ankles, then shin splints, back and even knees. It's kind of sad to see a good athlete being losing a career over supination because I firmly believe it can be trained out of an athlete. The bottom line is if you have supination issues you'll never fully develop your legs, and the correct pathways, and you'll hit a point where your leg strength and movement diminishes by the day.

    This BrainBag looks interesting. I use quite a few things, however, lumosity.com and another program called timeforlearning.com -- they've done the trick for me as I have a kid who isn't one to be told what to do!

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  • stotty
    replied
    Brain in a Bag

    Originally posted by tennis_chiro
    T-Berd is in rarified air these days and he's been playing so well, but he looked like he needs a break already. The 360 points will hurt, but he may do much better in Miami is he just takes a few extra days off right now. Tough when you are looking at all those points to defend, but he needs to find a way to be fresh for the Slams. As well as he has played, he averaged quarters for Wimby, US Open and Australian thanks to his recent semis in Oz, but he lost first round last year in RG. Seems to be getting better, but needs something extra to get to the next level. He's definitely knocking at the door. I need to do a longer post about it but I'm thinking he needs to look in strange places like Dean Brittenham's BrainInABag.com





    No, I'm not kidding. I saw this guy do a demo in 2000; spent a few days with him in 2001 and was really impressed. I just happened to look to see what had happened to him and I saw the above links. This is the kind of stuff I think could be the difference for someone like Janowicz. (needs work on the muscle between his ears!!! 6' 8" tall and 8 df's including match point! With a pretty nice motion; ridiculous!)
    don
    Condolences about T-Bird, Klarc. I think a key difference between him and the Big Four is movement. The Big Four just move so well that it is major a contributing factor that separates them from the rest of the pack. They can salvage rallies others would lose by incredible defending...and they always get in position so well when they are dominating rallies...amazing.

    Brain in a bag is interesting. I cannot make up my mind whether there's anything in it. I had two left feet when it comes to footwork drills, and my brain even got in a muddle when I carried them out. I can't skip to save my life. But oddly enough the ONLY thing I did really well on a court was move. That's not to say I couldn't have moved better, however.

    I think a key benefit could be the bilateral training. I know the Germans used to work a lot on bilateral transfer during the Becker/Graf. It's handy for tennis. But I'm far from expert on this kind of thing so it would be interesting to see what others think.

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  • tennis_chiro
    replied
    Originally posted by klacr
    Did Stotty have to mention the Berdych match?!!!

    I was hoping I could fly under the radar this week.

    All credit goes to Bautista Agut, who, happens to hit a incredibly flat ball. He's beaten Berdych before so I know coming in it would be a tough match. Berdych up until this point was aving a great year. Good news...I'll get to see him in Miami very soon. Sony Open starts soon.

    Isner is last of American Men. Sad. Sad. Sad. Querrey has two match points against Andreas Seppi...but lost in three sets. Brutal.

    Isner has always played well in Indian Wells. His serve does well in the altitude and dry conditions. Davydenko needed a step ladder to return Isner's kick serves.


    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton
    T-Berd is in rarified air these days and he's been playing so well, but he looked like he needs a break already. The 360 points will hurt, but he may do much better in Miami is he just takes a few extra days off right now. Tough when you are looking at all those points to defend, but he needs to find a way to be fresh for the Slams. As well as he has played, he averaged quarters for Wimby, US Open and Australian thanks to his recent semis in Oz, but he lost first round last year in RG. Seems to be getting better, but needs something extra to get to the next level. He's definitely knocking at the door. I need to do a longer post about it but I'm thinking he needs to look in strange places like Dean Brittenham's BrainInABag.com





    No, I'm not kidding. I saw this guy do a demo in 2000; spent a few days with him in 2001 and was really impressed. I just happened to look to see what had happened to him and I saw the above links. This is the kind of stuff I think could be the difference for someone like Janowicz. (needs work on the muscle between his ears!!! 6' 8" tall and 8 df's including match point! With a pretty nice motion; ridiculous!)

    I think HockeyScout should love this stuff. I want to know what the technology is of the foot and running mechanics he is referring to about Kournikova.

    don

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  • hockeyscout
    replied
    True ballers!

    Originally posted by don_budge
    For example...in one thread in the past year or so we were discussing the possible resurgence of the one handed backhand and I was an exponent of the resurgence...another poster made it clear that he believed that it wasn't going to happen. To which I responded...nothing. This is not an argument. It is an exchange of ideas and information. The one hand backhand is most viable even in today's present engineered form of tennis. It is discourage mainly because of the new "fad" of introducing children so young to the sport that they find it hard to manage the racket with one hand. But the fact of the matter is that it isn't a one hand backhand at all and the "off" hand has a big role in managing the head of the racket right up until impact with the ball.
    Got it. Funny, she likes the feel of the one handed backhand. Everyone hates it, and says you can't win with it, however, Grigor is doing rather well and he's next in line for # 1, so who knows. Anyways, she does it until she gets tired, and then goes to her two handed She's having a hell of a time figuring out how to manipulate the racket head on the onehander (I absolutely deplore anyone teaching grips, as I come from hockey, and we never, ever, never do that for a variety of reasons), however, she'll solve it if she a true baller!

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  • klacr
    replied
    Did Stotty have to mention the Berdych match?!!!

    I was hoping I could fly under the radar this week.

    All credit goes to Bautista Agut, who, happens to hit a incredibly flat ball. He's beaten Berdych before so I know coming in it would be a tough match. Berdych up until this point was aving a great year. Good news...I'll get to see him in Miami very soon. Sony Open starts soon.

    Isner is last of American Men. Sad. Sad. Sad. Querrey has two match points against Andreas Seppi...but lost in three sets. Brutal.

    Isner has always played well in Indian Wells. His serve does well in the altitude and dry conditions. Davydenko needed a step ladder to return Isner's kick serves.


    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton

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  • stotty
    replied
    This Plexipav surface is everywhere. My club has three courts which are Plexipav. It's a soulless surface...bland...a rallying paradise. We have it at the club because it's cheap to maintain.

    It's a shame Plexipav has come to dominate. Artificial grass courts looked promising when they first arrived, but they have never developed the surface enough to make it credible for ATP use. We have to be grateful to Wimbledon because grass would disappeared by now if the Brits weren't such sticklers for tradition. We still have a Queen, you know.

    The technology is there to slow things up, speed things up, raise bounces, lower bounces...whatever we want. All that is needed is the will. Being able to play the same way on ALL the surfaces should be made...well...impossible. God, even Borg had to learn to serve and volley back in the day...he managed it too.

    Berdych is in deep stuck as I write. Let's hope he pulls through for Klarc's sake. Doesn't look good...2-3 down...Agut's knocking the skin off the ball.
    Last edited by stotty; 03-09-2014, 12:08 PM.

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