Serve: starting from trophy pose

[stotty]

Good points Stotty. Will try....

Why not do a slow motion clip so we can see better what is going on? I cannot seem to freeze-frame your present Youtube clip around the vital moments.

I cannot believe with all the coaching talent that exists on the forum that one of us....or a collection of us...cannot help you succeed.

There's got to be a way...

[gzhpcu]

Why not do a slow motion clip so we can see better what is going on? I cannot seem to freeze-frame your present Youtube clip around the vital moments.

I cannot believe with all the coaching talent that exists on the forum that one of us....or a collection of us...cannot help you succeed.

There's got to be a way...

Stotty, I know what I have to do, but my automatic pilot just doesn't do it.
BTW: There is an iPhone app, called Ubersense. It is free. You can take a film with it, or film a film, and then it is stored in the app, and it can be looked at frame for frame... I use it a lot, along with the Zepp sensor, which is finally working...

[tennis_chiro]

Here's the "Hiccup"

...
Great post...I will wait for the "hiccup" with anticipation. And may post again once I watch your clips again.

I finally got it up

http://youtu.be/c76l9b8wgoM

don

[gzhpcu]

Don, shame the lighting is so bad and the background is so noisy...

[stotty]

Nice clip...what's next?

I finally got it up

http://youtu.be/c76l9b8wgoM

don

Nice clip. I often breakdown the serve in a not dissimilar way with students. I didn't catch everything in the clip because of background noise so forgive me if I missed something.

But the conundrum for me is this:

There is something about the wind-up (I like the BG method of breaking the serve down in to four phases) that governs what happens when we arrive at the trophy position, as in a how long we pause there and other factors. The relationship/synchronisation between the ball toss and the wind up is hard to override in players with established serves, especially in those who rush through the trophy position too quickly.

You see, I can get players to pause or get better racket drops by abbreviating or starting serves at or around the trophy position. It's incorporating things in to the full wind-up that tends to be problematic.

It always makes me realise that initiating the serve correctly from the outset with students is so valuable.


What's your next teaching phase beyond this...?

[tennis_chiro]

Next step: toss-and-catch-to-toss-and-hit

Nice clip. I often breakdown the serve in a not dissimilar way with students. I didn't catch everything in the clip because of background noise so forgive me if I missed something.

But the conundrum for me is this:

There is something about the wind-up (I like the BG method of breaking the serve down in to four phases) that governs what happens when we arrive at the trophy position, as in a how long we pause there and other factors. The relationship/synchronisation between the ball toss and the wind up is hard to override in players with established serves, especially in those who rush through the trophy position too quickly.

You see, I can get players to pause or get better racket drops by abbreviating or starting serves at or around the trophy position. It's incorporating things in to the full wind-up that tends to be problematic.

It always makes me realise that initiating the serve correctly from the outset with students is so valuable.


What's your next teaching phase beyond this...?

Sorry about the lighting and the sound. I'm working alone and the courts are adjacent to Interstate 5 at an area that was recently identified as one of the two or three most congested spots in LA county if not the whole country. I need to get some kind of remote mic that will allow me to film while standing somewhat away from the camera, but I thought the video allowed you to see the relevant points and, while you may have to turn the sound up a little to hear me, you can hear what I am saying most of the time.

In response to your question about fitting into the progression, Stotty, you have to understand that I try to do everything in the serve in the context of establishing a good rhythm with the rock as the lynchpin that holds it all together. The two main dry drills (no hitting) I use are the figure 8's and the toss-and-catch drills. The movement of the hands has to sync with the transfer of the weight. My argument is that if someone can do the motion indefinitely forwards and backwards and hold the rhythm and be consistent with the toss returning to their hand in the right place, then they might be able to toss it in the right place at the right time when they actually have to hit it, especially under pressure or fatigue.

So I make them learn those dry motions.

Next, where does this "hiccup" fit. This is just a case of trying to say "do the toss with the backswing, but hold on to the ball and focus on getting the racket to the trophy position, now leave the racket there while you retrace your backswing and your weight transfer/rock back to the beginning of the motion (racket hand stays still), and while maintaining the rhythm of your rock, toss the ball and at the completion of the toss, release the racket hand and hit the ball".

I find most of my students actually produce a better strike at the ball, at least early on in their development, from this strange motion. And they are learning to feel the rhythm of the rock forward as they toss the ball. I prefer my motion (also Stich's, Krajicek's and Stotty's) and I have reasons why I think it is a better foundation for the rhythm of the serve in the long run than the simple back to front of Sampras. I do not like the deliberate nature of the start that Federer uses with so little initiation from gravity; what Fed does is, in my opinion, vulnerable to breakdown in times of stress and fatigue; there is no automatic compass to bring the motion back in rhythm and he is subject to a bad serving day like he had against Nishikori last week. But those are my preferences; however, whatever rock you use, I think you should be able to feel the rhythm and reproduce it (try to do Federer's rock forward and in reverse in rhythm - very difficult). Granted, this is artificial in an age when the serve has players landing 4 feet into the court, but someone should be able to walk before they run and they should always be able to slow down and walk whenever they want to.

Point is, in the hiccup, I am trying to have the tossing hand retrace its path back to the beginning of the motion where it can start over again and then bring the racket into play at the end of the toss, which is the point where both hands are in the appropriate places in the motion to continue with the upward action to the ball; but they get to hit the serve from the static trophy position with the use of the essential lynchpin of the rhythm of the weight transfer/rock.

So then I go back and forth between hiccup, toss-and-catch-toss-and-hit, figure 8-figure 8-and-hit.

Hope that helps.

don

[stotty]

Thanks, tennis_chiro...but a couple of questions.

Sorry about the lighting and the sound. I'm working alone and the courts are adjacent to Interstate 5 at an area that was recently identified as one of the two or three most congested spots in LA county if not the whole country. I need to get some kind of remote mic that will allow me to film while standing somewhat away from the camera, but I thought the video allowed you to see the relevant points and, while you may have to turn the sound up a little to hear me, you can hear what I am saying most of the time.

In response to your question about fitting into the progression, Stotty, you have to understand that I try to do everything in the serve in the context of establishing a good rhythm with the rock as the lynchpin that holds it all together. The two main dry drills (no hitting) I use are the figure 8's and the toss-and-catch drills. The movement of the hands has to sync with the transfer of the weight. My argument is that if someone can do the motion indefinitely forwards and backwards and hold the rhythm and be consistent with the toss returning to their hand in the right place, then they might be able to toss it in the right place at the right time when they actually have to hit it, especially under pressure or fatigue.

So I make them learn those dry motions.

Next, where does this "hiccup" fit. This is just a case of trying to say "do the toss with the backswing, but hold on to the ball and focus on getting the racket to the trophy position, now leave the racket there while you retrace your backswing and your weight transfer/rock back to the beginning of the motion (racket hand stays still), and while maintaining the rhythm of your rock, toss the ball and at the completion of the toss, release the racket hand and hit the ball".

I find most of my students actually produce a better strike at the ball, at least early on in their development, from this strange motion. And they are learning to feel the rhythm of the rock forward as they toss the ball. I prefer my motion (also Stich's, Krajicek's and Stotty's) and I have reasons why I think it is a better foundation for the rhythm of the serve in the long run than the simple back to front of Sampras. I do not like the deliberate nature of the start that Federer uses with so little initiation from gravity; what Fed does is, in my opinion, vulnerable to breakdown in times of stress and fatigue; there is no automatic compass to bring the motion back in rhythm and he is subject to a bad serving day like he had against Nishikori last week. But those are my preferences; however, whatever rock you use, I think you should be able to feel the rhythm and reproduce it (try to do Federer's rock forward and in reverse in rhythm - very difficult). Granted, this is artificial in an age when the serve has players landing 4 feet into the court, but someone should be able to walk before they run and they should always be able to slow down and walk whenever they want to.

Point is, in the hiccup, I am trying to have the tossing hand retrace its path back to the beginning of the motion where it can start over again and then bring the racket into play at the end of the toss, which is the point where both hands are in the appropriate places in the motion to continue with the upward action to the ball; but they get to hit the serve from the static trophy position with the use of the essential lynchpin of the rhythm of the weight transfer/rock.

So then I go back and forth between hiccup, toss-and-catch-toss-and-hit, figure 8-figure 8-and-hit.

Hope that helps.

don

Thanks for coming back with all this stuff.

I am always keen to probe you on the serve as you've clearly have devised proven method that works for you and have a firm belief in it.

I have another question I would like to ask, and in doing so let's remove recreational and general club players from the equation. Let's refer to young performance players with ability:

What is your success rate with your teaching method on the serve? Do you find having them practice these dry motions they can eventually translate it in to the real thing? Or do you find some are just wired a certain way and cannot carry out what you ask?

And also, what about if someone comes to you aged 15 with an established serve that doesn't conform? Do you find using dry motions you can reconfigure a players mechanics over time, or are some a lost cause?

You see, I feel I have too many players who I deem are wired a certain way. But then that just may be I am not being effective enough at getting players to reconfigure their motions. Maybe repeatedly taking things back to base using dry motions is the most effective way to go. I'm curious as I would like to improve my teaching when it comes to serving.

In serving, we have an arm throwing and an arm swinging. Altering the timing of these elements often presents a challenge for players similar to trying to rub your tummy and pat your head at the same time...takes some doing.

I understand your comments on Federer's serve. The way he initiates the serve is strange for a motion so fluent. But when I reenact his serve for myself I find it strangely rhythmic. You detect there is minuscule of gravity doing its work in there. When he won his five set Wimbledon final against Roddick, serving 50 aces, his serve answered any lingering doubts I had. He became unbreakable in that fifth set...right when if the wheels are going to come off, they will.

[GeoffWilliams]

Fed is able to maintain a mixture of confidence and disrespect/hatred against some of his opponents, Roddick being one of them, which made him unbeatable.

[stroke]

I finally got it up

http://youtu.be/c76l9b8wgoM

don

What Don is emphasizing in his presentation to me is the very same point Rick Macci was teaching in that kind of long video(I think poster hockeyscout provided the link)in which he was going over the serve, forehand, and backhand. In Rick's presentation, he said that per Brian's research, not having anything there for the hit is the number one problem hurting folk's serve. Rick's solution was the "probation" serve, as he called it. It is the same concept to me that Don is presenting here.

[tennis_chiro]

Difference with a distinction

What Don is emphasizing in his presentation to me is the very same point Rick Macci was teaching in that kind of long video(I think poster hockeyscout provided the link)in which he was going over the serve, forehand, and backhand. In Rick's presentation, he said that per Brian's research, not having anything there for the hit is the number one problem hurting folk's serve. Rick's solution was the "probation" serve, as he called it. It is the same concept to me that Don is presenting here.

Yes, I am emphasizing a similar point to what Rick was getting at. I think he puts a bigger emphasis on the leg drive causing the "pro drop/power position" to be deeper.

The difference that I am trying to emphasize is that even with "probation" serve, you can integrate the feeling of rhythm and the linkage to the rock/weight transfer as you toss the ball. When the ball leaves the tossing hand and that hand reaches up after the ball, the racket needs to still be in that "probation serve" position. In the old days (70's & 80's, maybe even early 90's), everyone had upwards of 90% of their weight on the front foot by the time that tossing hand was extended, but now with the greater emphasis on platform stances and the leg drive, a greater portion of the weight is maintained on the back foot by a lot of players. This makes for a much more complicated push up to the contact and I think it is a mistake to start doing this until a player has absolutely mastered hitting up at the ball with a good snap, contacting the ball at full extension; actually, I'm not convinced it actually adds that much velocity to the serve and, to me, it seems there has to be a price paid in reduced accuracy and consistency. Remember, almost everyone stores the energy from the leg drive in an increased load on the shoulder and by the time they are contacting the ball, they are already descending. Certainly, it is nice to have the additional height some of the players get, but at what cost. There is a big difference between driving up off the ground (and leaving the ground as a result) and jumping up to meet the serve. Simple physics tells me if I put that much energy into raising my body into the air, I don't get to use that energy a second time to add speed to the ball; it was spent lifting me off the ground. So I have some questions there.

But I am sure in at least half the kids I see with great leg drive that takes them off the ground to hit their serves, they haven't mastered the simple concept of hitting up at the ball with a good snap at their full extension. Do you really think it is that much harder to throw a 40 yard pass to a target in the NFL than it is to hit a 130 mph ace to a spot on the court; when I see those quarterbacks jumping, I'm going to have to reconsider.

In any case, I think rhythm and synchronization of the toss and the weight transfer are essential for consistency and accuracy. My "hiccup" is just a way to execute a "probationary serve" with that sense of rhythm built in.

don

[tennis_chiro]

Tough to change the Zebra's stripes!!

Thanks for coming back with all this stuff.

I am always keen to probe you on the serve as you've clearly have devised proven method that works for you and have a firm belief in it.

I have another question I would like to ask, and in doing so let's remove recreational and general club players from the equation. Let's refer to young performance players with ability:

What is your success rate with your teaching method on the serve? Do you find having them practice these dry motions they can eventually translate it in to the real thing? Or do you find some are just wired a certain way and cannot carry out what you ask?

And also, what about if someone comes to you aged 15 with an established serve that doesn't conform? Do you find using dry motions you can reconfigure a players mechanics over time, or are some a lost cause?

You see, I feel I have too many players who I deem are wired a certain way. But then that just may be I am not being effective enough at getting players to reconfigure their motions. Maybe repeatedly taking things back to base using dry motions is the most effective way to go. I'm curious as I would like to improve my teaching when it comes to serving.

...

I don't really try to completely overhaul an advanced player's serve to what i would like to see had I started with that person much earlier; however, on a couple of occasions I have had players who said they wanted to make the change.

First of all, in the general, even though I may not be able to get someone to change their motion entirely, I insist that they do my drills in a manner somewhat incorporating the motion I am advocating, so that they can feel the benefits of those principles. Then we work together to try to help them integrate that feeling into their own service motion. The toss-and-catch-toss-and-hit drill forces them to feel rhythm. The figure 8 drill allows them to feel the benefit of having the racket drop from the trophy position and swing over to the line of the target; it usually helps an awful lot to get the sense of a correct snap. I usually introduce it to my students and to go off and do the dry drills for 5 minutes 10 times before the next lesson. I explain that they will call me some awful names as they are doing these things, but they are going to have to go through it. Of course, they don't all listen to me, but occasionally someone actually does what I ask. If they can't handle the full motion, I may employ the "hiccup" as a bridge. Sometimes, someone can't handle the backswing and I have them go to a "Gonzales" motion with an abbreviated backswing. Recently, I had a student who had to do the "hiccup" to a "Roddick/Gonzales" trophy position, where he had the racket paused with the racket a little lower and pointed off to the right side of the court (right hander). The girl in those videos in Connecticut was just learning and couldn't handle a full backswing, but she did much better with a Gonzales-like motion so I had her doing the figure 8's with that too. Takes a lot of reps and those reps have to be done with appropriate focus.

Second, for the advanced player who wants to change. I've had three college players going into their senior years who made big changes on their serves. I tell them that they are going to have to hit at least 10,000 practice serves in 2 to 3 months maximum and with a lot of attention to the drills as they hit those serves. And that will be just to get to where the serve is useable in competition. It will take probably another six months of work to develop confidence in that serve. And, in my opinion, it will take at least a year of practice to convert the new serve to a weapon that can be counted on in competition; so that is going to be a rough year.

So the three college seniors:
Bill was a decent college player with good snap and a terrible service motion; I'm talking about Div III (no scholarships). He came to work for me as an assistant pro the summer before his senior year and he had to teach with my drills all summer. He ended up with a great serve and was recently (30 years later) ranked number one in his age group in Southern California and top ten in the nation.

Locky was another college player playing 2nd or 3rd singles for my alma mater. I gave him the task and just a few lessons, but he did the work. Of course, he was pretty motivated and got the 10,000 practice serves in over his Xmas break and before his season started and made the change in a couple of months to where he began winning matches he'd previously lost. The transformation was a success. Of course, his diligence in following through with the drills was key. And today, he is completing his residency in orthopedic surgery or has already completed it. He had that kind of diligence. He is the only advanced player who really committed to making that kind of change and got it done to where he could be effective in just 2 months. It wasn't until a couple of more months and a few matches under his belt that he started to have real confidence, but the transformation was very quick.

The third college player is still working at it 4 or 5 years later. He wanted to break into the starting line-up on his college team and he did, but he never quite got all the serving practice done and he never quite mastered the changes. I'm actually supposed to see him in a couple of weeks and he tells me he is finally beginning to hold on to the racket handle (not letting the heel of the hand off of the butt at any time - sorry Bottle). He started with no power drop, but great snap and athleticism. That's why he cheated by letting go of the racket to get it around and up to the ball. So I'm curious to see how he is doing.

Another advanced player I worked with was a nationally ranked 14 year-old, 6' tall young lady who had a scary snap with very little internal rotation. When I first saw the slow motion (and I had just begun using the 210 fps Casio camera or I might have missed it), I was genuinely concerned that she was going to break her arm or wrist. She was getting the racket head pointed down at the top of the swing as she should, but there was no internal rotation. Unfortunately, I didn't get to finish the job with her and only got to work with her about 9 months, but she really needed my drills to retrain herself with correct internal rotation; she couldn't get away from her habits if she just kept hitting serves. I wish I'd understood my "burp" and "bubble" drills a little more at that point and I think I would have had more success with her. She's a freshman in college now and still working at it.

So, yes, it is really hard to entirely change an established service motion. You certainly can get the advanced player to incorporate essential elements they may be missing into their own idiosyncratic motions. And it is possible, but very difficult, to make complete changes.

Hope that helps you out, Stotty. As for Fed's serve, obviously, it has been great for him. My point with the rhythm and gravity is that when it does go off, as his did last week, it is easy to get back on track. Clearly, he was right on track against Roddick (and Rafa) in those Wimbledon matches. But I don't think his essential rhythm is as reliable as Gonzales's was.

don

[gzhpcu]

It's a shame you are so far away Don, I would love to work live with you.

My problem is that I have never been able to find a tennis teacher with your understanding and eye for the serve.

Most of the teachers here are just of the "watch the ball, that will be 80 bucks"-type.

I did manage to find a 40 year old, Argentine ex-ATP challenger tennis teacher here who really helped me a lot with my topspin on my groundstrokes, but tells me my serve is just fine, and that the extent of my drop is not so important. I disagree, because, as I have stated previously when I do the motion in front of a mirror, I get a pretty decent drop.

While I have managed to alter my groundstrokes quite a bit, my serve all stays the same. Every time I think I finally changed something, I video it, and see that I haven't.

One point I am currently working on is getting my tossing arm up higher and keeping it up longer, hoping this might help...

Just love the Gonzales serve too. Hope that by watching this video repeatedly, something will eventually rub off....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhFo3hvGPI

[tennis_chiro]

Phil,

I haven't got a clip that really gets the full beginning of the Pancho Gonzales serve. The one you sited is nice, but it cuts off a few tenths of a second at the beginning of the motion where he rocks back and starts his hands down before coming up. You are not that far away from him.

Why don't you take the clip in the Gonzales archive, ServeFront1,

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/pancho-gonzales/

and do a side by side with ubersense with your serve shot from the same perspective. Sync up the contact point and you'll see you are a little rushed in the beginning.

You love that motion and it is a great one. Why not copy it to the t. The thing that is holding you back is that fast rhythm you have on the backswing at the beginning. Try to get some of Pancho's fluidity. When you go frame by frame, you'll see that he rocks, drops the left and then the right. It is actually a slightly "staggered" motion. You would have to slow your right hand down considerably to copy it with any accuracy, but that might be the trick that does it for you. He still has the right hand down as the ball is being released and then the right hand goes up and gets the ball. The advantage or at least one aspect of the staggered motion (Fish) is that the right hand can't hesitate once it starts to go up; it has to catch up to the toss. But you would have to slow the right hand down to stay behind until the ball leaves your left hand. Watch frame by frame and you will see that is what Pancho is doing. Then his racket accelerates constantly to impact; it has to.

don
PS I wish you were here too!

[tennis_chiro]

Weight transfer

Phil,
looking at it further, you certainly have a staggered motion as well. The problem is you short-change the weight-transfer/rock to the rear at the beginning which gives a staccato feel to your rhythm. I can't run you frame-by-frame,but compare it to the Gonzales ServeFront1, but don't play it; run it frame by frame. If you play it, you can barely see that Pancho really rocks his weight to the rear (although only to about even) before he leans forward into the serve. Frame by frame, you can see there is a substantial rock. Your motion is not that different.

don

[gzhpcu]

Thanks don! Yes, that fast initial movement has also been bugging me. Will look at his serve a bit more! Thanks for the compliment, but I feel miles away from the great Pancho's serve...