Jack Kramer type toss solved my problem...

[gzhpcu]

After my hip operation and a break in playing, I am playing well again, but the only thing which I have been having trouble with is the toss on the serve - it has been very erratic. Though I have tried keeping elbow and wrist in line and only using the shoulden, I have been struggling.

This week I read in a Vic Braden book (Tennis 2000) that Jack Kramer would begin his toss with the left hand palm facing down and then gradually turn the palm up at the end of the toss. I tried it out, and instantly I got a stable toss. Keeping the palm of the hand facing down instead of up during the beginnning of the toss stabilized by whole arm - elbow and wrist remain locked, so the toss is only done with the shoulder. My serve is finally back since the toss is accurate and stable.

Anybody else experience this?

[stotty]

Anybody else experience this?

Every day...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JulFZOAYvZI

[tennis_chiro]

Brent Abel video on the toss hold position

After my hip operation and a break in playing, I am playing well again, but the only thing which I have been having trouble with is the toss on the serve - it has been very erratic. Though I have tried keeping elbow and wrist in line and only using the shoulden, I have been struggling.

This week I read in a Vic Braden book (Tennis 2000) that Jack Kramer would begin his toss with the left hand palm facing down and then gradually turn the palm up at the end of the toss. I tried it out, and instantly I got a stable toss. Keeping the palm of the hand facing down instead of up during the beginnning of the toss stabilized by whole arm - elbow and wrist remain locked, so the toss is only done with the shoulder. My serve is finally back since the toss is accurate and stable.

Anybody else experience this?

NorCal's Brent Abel, a Tom Stowe disciple, has a great video on this. I came across it a couple of years ago and think it is right on the money:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8kynEzufNE

don

[bottle]

A Distinction to be Made Here?

Ha-ha. The Abel video shows MY ice cream cone toss. Having tossed all three ways-- palm down from Braden, ice cream cone, palm up-- and probably a few other ways as well, I think we probably need a distinction between palm down and ice cream cone. The simplest idea is to use the method that works best-- ice cream cone in my case.

[gzhpcu]

I only tried the palm down, not the ice cream cone position. Since my tossing motion immediately stabilized (almost miraculously) with the palm down, I am sticking with palm down. Incredible how such a minimal change can induce such a big change. I am happy again serving...

Braden goes on to say that when the ball is held in the fingertips and the palm is pointed upward results, based on his studies, more muscle contractions. He also draws a parallel to a baseball pitcher throwing the palm of his glove down when throwing the ball because it places less stress on the non-throwing hand.

[bottle]

Yep, I'm afraid I've thought too much about this. I've always wondered if this glove down imagery didn't belong more to rotational in the sense of horizontally rotational serves.

Rather than in serves where leg drive predominates as in crew (in tennis main thrust from front leg, back leg, both legs, or an exotic combination involving sequence) or where the eyeball-bearing head rotating over toes or a twanging long bow is the biggest thing.

A subject in which you and I have somewhat Q&A'd before.

But I'm interested in your assertion about hand finally rotating open at release. That idea may not have been originally or sufficiently expressed way back in TENNIS FOR THE FUTURE. Next time it's 0-40 I'll try it.

Don's lack of a distinction between palm down and ice cream cone gives me hope that ice cream cone can still easily generate a sound launching position.

[stotty]

Palm down versus ice-cream

Jack is definitely more ice-cream cone than palm down. I can vouch for palm down as even better than ice-cream cone because the arm is in an even more natural position; ice-cream cone still feels slightly forced when I try it.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/jack-kramer/

I use palm down. I have lots of balls in my hand in the clip but nevertheless as the ball toss commences I go palm down immediately.

[gzhpcu]

I am going palm down and even releasing without ever turning the hand. Works best for me...

[don_budge]

Visualization...

Yep, I'm afraid I've thought too much about this. I've always wondered if this glove down imagery didn't belong more to rotational in the sense of horizontally rotational serves.

Rather than in serves where leg drive predominates as in crew (in tennis main thrust from front leg, back leg, both legs, or an exotic combination involving sequence) or where the eyeball-bearing head rotating over toes or a twanging long bow is the biggest thing.

A subject in which you and I have somewhat Q&A'd before.

But I'm interested in your assertion about hand finally rotating open at release. That idea may not have been originally or sufficiently expressed way back in TENNIS FOR THE FUTURE. Next time it's 0-40 I'll try it.

Don's lack of a distinction between palm down and ice cream cone gives me hope that ice cream cone can still easily generate a sound launching position.

More importantly perhaps than the delivery system in which to get the ball to the racquet or the racquet to the ball is the actual point that you are aiming for in you tossing motion.

I find that there is one specific point that I have in mind when I am tossing the ball aiming my service at my opponent. That point might vary ever so slightly when it comes to direction but vary a bit more with the relationship as to what type of spin I am attempting to impart on the ball.

If you consciously know where you are aiming the ball and why you are aiming the ball there; you probably have a much better chance of getting the ball there in the vicinity than if you are only concerned with your technique of getting it there.

Your body will eventually figure it all out with trial and error. Being too concerned with technique can interfere with the aiming and delivery process.

[gzhpcu]

I agree with the exception that in this case with the palm down approach the joints get locked, eliminating the degrees of freedom inherent in the palm up approach.