Question on Andre Agassi serve...

[John Yandell]

Don't know about Robert's pro experience if any.

[GeoffWilliams]

Did R.L. ever win a pro tournament? Or any money at any level at all? Not someone who is afraid of antagonizing people either. So how much money did he win playing if any? Anyone know? All I've ever seen him do is harangue juniors and feed balls.

[gzhpcu]

Let's just leave it at that...

(Actually it is more of a question directed to John...)

[hockeyscout]

That is still not what I mean hockeyscout, but never mind...

I understand, I understand.

To answer your question. The ball toss!!!!!!!!!!

I have been really working hard on this one aspect of the serve. I think it may be very undervalued. I am trying to figure out right now, how much should we play with it each day?

I am spending a lot of hours working it out, and I am experimenting with the 19 year kid a lot on it although I think his genetic alligator arm which isn't double jointed like I want isn't suited to it at all. I will let you all tear apart what I think, and post next week.

When I have it sorted out I will post my technical thoughts in a week or so.

[hockeyscout]

Hello, I enjoy you as well don_budge, especially you're manifesto's on serve and volley.

You need a team to win, and guys like Geoff.

I find Geoff to be very credible, and I have made such a consensious effort to better understand where he is coming from when he discusses his area of expertise. He's a person worth investing in for me, and I know moving forward how important having a good string - racket man in your corner is if you expect to get any athlete to reach their full potential.

Every great player has a bucket full of great coaches, advisers, guys like Geoff (stringers), doctors, supporters, sparring partners, judo, boxing, fitness and nutrition experts in their corner. However, some players and associations and federations have a bucketful of people around them who behave like crabs, who instead of helping one another just pull everyone back into the bucket. I would never have a CRAB as a member of my support team, and generally these people are usually never given a chance to work with a world class athlete because of their inability to work in a professional environment.

I have got to hand it to a guy like Nick Bolletierri (and Landsdorf, Macci and others) who checked his ego's at the door and allowed his player (Maria Sharapova) to train with Landsdorf (and other coaches, and other experts).

He also surrounded his athletes with the best psychologists, fitness trainers, nutritionists, NFL training experts and listened to people (good or bad respectfully).

That was Nick's talent. That made him a great coach, no matter what don_budge says. His players won, and he knew how to use assets. A great coach does this 24-7! Robert, Rick, Richard and Mike had other talents, and Bolletierri to his credit realized it.

As I have said many times before, many parents fail to coach their daughter to be the next Serena Williams (like Richard Williams), many coaches fail to help develop number ones like Robert Lansdorf, many associations fail to develop top 10 players every year and many players fail to fulfill their goals of winning a Wimbeldon Championship like Maria Sharapova.

And, yes, it will take years. You're right. It took Ms. Bartolli 25 years of playing tennis to get it right. A few years of trial and error only makes an athlete stronger and better over the long haul.

[gzhpcu]

I am pretty sure you will never have a "head still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc.still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc," if you do not have certain genetic qualities to begin with in the first place. If you tried to teach Sampras' or Ruddick's core fundamentals you'd likely ruin a good young arm. It's all about molding clay, and not trying to build a rock. Every player is different, however, I am sure we can all agree you need to be born with some tools.

That is still not what I mean hockeyscout, but never mind...

[hockeyscout]

Those are not the core fundamentals I am talking about hockeyscout. You are describing the physical makeup. I am referring to things such as: keeping head still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc.

I am pretty sure you will never have a "head still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc.still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc," if you do not have certain genetic qualities to begin with in the first place. If you tried to teach Sampras' or Ruddick's core fundamentals you'd likely ruin a good young arm. It's all about molding clay, and not trying to build a rock. Every player is different, however, I am sure we can all agree you need to be born with some tools.

[bottle]

Nice.

[don_budge]

The Classic Serve Motion...and the Golf Swing

I think the classic serve for those who don't have it in their blood to start with, is an immense task. It's a step by step business...little by little. It takes patience, commitment and a good deal of hard work and practice. It's close to impossible to achieve once a player has past a given point in their development.

It's a beautiful description Stotty...attainable by anyone. According to Carl Jung we all have access to the Collective Unconscious...it is only a matter of being engaged. With life...with the universe as it is.

I took my first golf lesson on my 40th birthday. I eventually mastered the game of golf. Does one ever really master such a thing? Two weeks ago I went out and played an even par round from tee to green...without having played a single round in three years. For some inexplicable reason...I had a "perfect swing".

It was an immense task to learn not only the full swing...but all of the other swings. I did it precisely as you outlined it..."It's a step by step business...little by little. It takes patience, commitment and a good deal of hard work and practice."

I took some lessons...I had a lot of help from a lot of different people. I read everything from Bobby Jones, Byron Nelson, Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus to Tiger Woods. I played with Mizuno mp33 blades. But eventually I became my own coach. I learned everything from the process of becoming a tennis player...then I used the associative properties of match play and spinning the ball as my universal guide. It was a tough road at times...but I stuck with it. Never got paid a dime to do it...so why did I climb that mountain? For the love of the game. The game came to me.

Teach your student the grip, setup position, the backswing, the point in between the backswing and forward swing, the forward swing, the follow through and how to relax throughout the whole process. It isn't easy...but on the other hand it isn't out of reach for anyone that wants to pay the price...the price of admission.

[don_budge]

hockeyscout and geoffwilliams...

Close to impossible: I know that feeling! The only path is hard work. Video also shows the continued failures. HOw do you teach someone to externally rotate, and then internally rotate, and leverage up with their shoulder? It's too much to hold and too much to do. Most just learn by watching and imitating. Most teachers games are not very good. Ever see Richard Williams hit? Nick B.? ? They suck as players and not one of them ever made a dime in a tournament. As any player older who has ever tried to learn to hit an atp snap back fh, or serve can tell you, it is close to impossible. The women don't even hit over heads anymore, just high fh.

Thanks johnyandell for casting the reality of Robert Lansdorp's tennis playing ability...he is truly a great and respected tennis teacher and was an accomplished tennis player. One of the biggest honors ever for me as a tennis coach was to have my name used in the same sentence as Robert Lansdorp's. It happened right here on the forum...rightfully or wrongfully.

Robert played number one at pepperdine, got to the ncaa semis (I think it was semis) and was a college all american.

I really am enjoying you two guys...geoffwilliams and hockeyscout. We all are. But where is the bit about Robert Lansdorp geoffwilliams? The bit where you are roundly accusing him of being just another hack. To lump Robert Lansdorp with Richard Williams and "Nick B." is such a huge miss...you need a much bigger racquet to accommodate such a wild swing. So much for the technology. I never knew of Lansdorp's playing abilities but I would have guessed from the quality of his knowledge and wisdom that he was accomplished. A great teacher would have to be at least an accomplished player.

So if we can apply the associative properties of logic...everything that comes out of your corner from now on must be taken with a huge grain of salt.

I sincerely hope that you take our fledgling tennis coach under your wing...it will take years for him to find the light of day after your tutelage. Great stuff...both of you!

[gzhpcu]

Those are not the core fundamentals I am talking about hockeyscout. You are describing the physical makeup. I am referring to things such as: keeping head still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc.

[hockeyscout]

Would be nice to see a future article identifying the core fundamentals on the serve. Those which you absolutely need to do, ignoring all those points which can be individualized (stance, take back, etc.).

- Magic rotator cuff
- Correct body proportions
- Size is a plus
- Heavy bones
- Perfect rib cage stability

I'd say the same as a NFL QB, or MLB pitcher, and their have been a lot of studies done on this in those two specific sports.

To bad Roger Clements did not play tennis. Can you imagine what he'd serve like with the above five mentioned tools!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gR6u-nAMII

[hockeyscout]

Close to impossible: I know that feeling! The only path is hard work. Video also shows the continued failures. HOw do you teach someone to externally rotate, and then internally rotate, and leverage up with their shoulder? It's too much to hold and too much to do. Most just learn by watching and imitating. Most teachers games are not very good. Ever see Richard Williams hit? Nick B.? Robert L.? They suck as players and not one of them ever made a dime in a tournament. As any player older who has ever tried to learn to hit an atp snap back fh, or serve can tell you, it is close to impossible. The women don't even hit over heads anymore, just high fh.

You could study any video you want, get $800 an hour coaching, work at it 24-7, have passion, work ethic and all the rest, however, one in in 7 billion people will have Pete Sampras' timing, double joints, rotator cuff, wrist strength, long arms and reach. Good luck teaching it. Agassi probably maxed out his potential, and just could not do the physical things necessary to perform a great serve. Some athletes are easier to "fire" than others because they have certain genetic traits.

You've got to know what you have sometimes as a coach, and what you don't have. Perhaps that was the genius of Nick B, Mike A and Pancho with Andre, they probably knew they lacked some genetics for the serve, speed was a major problem and size even bigger, so they taught him to take the ball on the rise, make his motion VERY efficient, make him stop - start - accelerate and decelerate better than any tennis player in the history of the game (many guys were faster, however, Agassi's running is unbelievable in every aspect and he always gets to the ball at the right time), excel in the return to serve (quickstrike game) and of course put a bit of a boxers skill set and engagement into what he did where he could step in and just kill you if you gave him an opening. I thought about this a bit longer and harder today, maybe they did do a better job working with what they had than we figured.

[hockeyscout]

Agreed

I think the classic serve for those who don't have it in their blood to start with, is an immense task.

Agree. 100%.

[John Yandell]

Robert played number one at pepperdine, got to the ncaa semis (I think it was semis) and was a college all american.