Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve

[bobbyswift]

maria serve

I was using video shot at Palm Springs one year ago that I shot. I used
Pete from Tennisplayer archive both shot add rear. With pinpoint stance the weight comes forward slightly sooner with a low toss. Ivan Ljubicic. At ball release his back foot heal is off ground. With her toss height her back foot should be flat at ball release. Her toss height rivals Nicolas Keifer. Maria has achieved trophy position when Keifer has his hand basically hip high. Super high toss weight should stay back longer racket up much slower. Then hip rotation becomes the issue.

[John Yandell]

Bobby,

Great points! I will do that side by side as well and send it to Sven. Very interesting on the timing of the weight shift and the rotation. The shift is timed more characteristically of pinpoints no?

[jimlosaltos]

Impact Height

Maria has let her toss become the highest in the game. She combines her problem by letting the weight transfer forward to early. At the moment of ball release she has already started forward. Thus her rhythm suffers. Her attempt to create Sampras style rotation of hip and shoulder is mistimed. When I put them together Pete has turned his hips clockwise at a totally different time. Maria is still turning clockwise when Pete is fully turned and beginning to rotate slightly counter clock-wise. her leg drive is the best I have ever seen.

By my admittedly-crude eyeball estimate from photos, Maria's impact point on her serve is as high or higher than that of Milos Raonic <g>

[bobbyswift]

maria serve

Maria has let her toss become the highest in the game. She combines her problem by letting the weight transfer forward to early. At the moment of ball release she has already started forward. Thus her rhythm suffers. Her attempt to create Sampras style rotation of hip and shoulder is mistimed. When I put them together Pete has turned his hips clockwise at a totally different time. Maria is still turning clockwise when Pete is fully turned and beginning to rotate slightly counter clock-wise. her leg drive is the best I have ever seen.

[John Yandell]

Does it matter? She is lacking this critical element now. Who knows then?

[jimlosaltos]

Before and After?

John,

Your analysis of Maria's inconsistent rotation is great.

But if you're going to attribute her current inconsistency to that, it would be useful to compare pre-should-injury video to current video. That would make a strong case for Sven Groenefeld, I would think. My recollection, hardly a 100% certainty, is that Maria did not have the level of double faults and inconsistency when she was younger, i.e. before the first of her multiple shoulder injuries.

So, has her motion changed?

Of course, Maria didn't screech back then, so if correlation proves causation -- maybe that's the real cause <g>

[John Yandell]

With Maria that is the point, as Jim's photos show along with the high speed clips in the archive. Sometimes she rotates and sometimes she doesn't and does so less often on her second serve.

The timing of rotation issue has to do with placement most of all. See my current serve article on that.

The goal would be to try to use this key biomechanical element on all serves for racket head speed. Toss and slight variations in angle of approach are what determine the spin balance, remembering there is no such thing as a flat, topspin or slice serve--all are mixes of predominant sidespin with some topspin component.

[tennis_chiro]

Don, I argree with you completely about the Roddick motion being way to complicated to teach someone, but I do think Roddick is kind of a Gonzalez type motion on hyperdrive. The reason I brought up Roddick was because of what John wrote about the Roddick serve in his part 2 analysis on his serve. John had pointed out the extra suppination Roddick gets on his backswing position(racquet pointing more out to the right side as you pointed out in your video is where you want to be). John noted that to him it is harder to achieve this position using the full wind up, easier using the abbreviated type wind up. Gonzalez as you agree is also abbreviated. I think from what you stated about what happened with this girl you were teaching, you may be somewhat on the same page with John on this.

Not good to be on a different page from JY. He has the video evidence. You have to be very careful when you try to go on a different page, as I have on occasion.

I remember when Roddick first came up and we were trying to figure out how he was hitting the serve so big. And then I think it was JY who identified that extra supination in the racket drop. And then he did an article and we were all trying to see if our wrists and forearms could handle that range of motion, with varying levels of success and failure. I believe it is part of the reason that Raonic has that unusual starting position; he is trying to preload additional supination into the racket drop position. Seems to work for him.

don

[stroke]

Don, I argree with you completely about the Roddick motion being way to complicated to teach someone, but I do think Roddick is kind of a Gonzalez type motion on hyperdrive. The reason I brought up Roddick was because of what John wrote about the Roddick serve in his part 2 analysis on his serve. John had pointed out the extra suppination Roddick gets on his backswing position(racquet pointing more out to the right side as you pointed out in your video is where you want to be). John noted that to him it is harder to achieve this position using the full wind up, easier using the abbreviated type wind up. Gonzalez as you agree is also abbreviated. I think from what you stated about what happened with this girl you were teaching, you may be somewhat on the same page with John on this.

[tennis_chiro]

Don, I thought you did a superb job of explaining the full arm rotation on the serve to your student during what you termed the big burp or bubble portion on the video. Her serve did get the proper snap using that motion, which looked kind of like a Roddick type motion to me. I think she ought to go with that motion, make it the base of her service motion, all the time. I really liked how you pointed out the "common mistake" of going behind the back too much instead of out to the right with the proper supination.

Thanks, Stroke.

That video is a little unfair to the young lady I am teaching there. I only worked with her for a few weeks two summers ago in CT and she hadn't had a lot of time to learn the service motion, but she actually did very well and was making tremendous improvement. The videos were made, actually, as a review for her after we did about 2 dozen hours of lessons over 5 weeks and I was leaving to go back to California.

It's interesting that you mention that it looks like the best motion for her. I prefer to use the fuller backswing as a starting point and most of my students end up that way. My ideal is a Krajicek/Stich kind of a motion. But I find that even with students that do well with the full backswing, this "burp" and "bubble" routine that I developed works very well to emphasize the proper snap and internal shoulder rotation necessary for a good serve. (The names grew out of starting with what I call the "hiccup" which really feels like almost a hiccup. I needed a name for the various drills that stayed in that general nomenclature. The "burp" was very short and the "bubble" was just a little bigger. I was trying to find something the student would remember. Of course, it's best if the name is a little ridiculous too!)

With this young lady, she just didn't do well with the full backswing. I had some success with the various drills I put her through, but she couldn't produce a decent service motion with a full backswing. Over the last few years, I've become more flexible in understanding my way is not always best and when I hit this wall, I try the shorter backswing. Isn't it a shame, I tell them, you are going to have to learn what many, if not most, tennis pros think is the best service motion in the history of the game, the abbreviated backswing of Pancho Gonzales. (And they say who?) But notice that I have her maintaining a clearly synchronized rock and tossing action with the weight going forward, like Gonzales, during the toss.

One of the tricks with using this abbreviated motion (and please forget about trying to imitate Roddick - that motion and dance is way too complicated to teach someone) is to get the upper arm up to the line of the clavicles where a proper drop can be executed.

But you are absolutely right; this did become the base of her actual service motion.

don

[stroke]

Wow, Jim. Those are great shots.

But I think the telling difference between the degree of internal rotation demonstrated in the first picture and the second one tells a lot about her service action. Probably the second shot was of a "flatter" serve, but even on a "flat" serve, you would see the internal rotation being completed much earlier on a Sampras or even Federer.

JY, does the video back up what I am postulating here. The first picture is just milliseconds further along in the action sequence than the second, but if the completion of the internal rotation is delayed until that later part of the motion, it is not going to be as effective in either developing power and spin or in releasing tension to protect the shoulder.

What do you think? Actually, we should know what you think. That is the whole point of the article. I think Maria would be a great candidate for my "burp" and "bubble" service drills. If you go to 8 minutes in on this clip, you can see me demonstrating and reviewing my "burp" and "bubble" drills with one of my students.

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Pro-Coach-Don-Brosseau-Serve/i-NkQg8HW/A

The full demonstration of the drill comes at 11:30. A more clarifying rear view comes at 12:00.

don

Don, I thought you did a superb job of explaining the full arm rotation on the serve to your student during what you termed the big burp or bubble portion on the video. Her serve did get the proper snap using that motion, which looked kind of like a Roddick type motion to me. I think she ought to go with that motion, make it the base of her service motion, all the time. I really liked how you pointed out the "common mistake" of going behind the back too much instead of out to the right with the proper supination.

[jimlosaltos]

[QUOTE=tennis_chiro;27970]Wow, Jim. Those are great shots.

Thanks. Appreciate it.

[tennis_chiro]

Difference between Jim's 1st and 2nd pictures

Wow, Jim. Those are great shots.

But I think the telling difference between the degree of internal rotation demonstrated in the first picture and the second one tells a lot about her service action. Probably the second shot was of a "flatter" serve, but even on a "flat" serve, you would see the internal rotation being completed much earlier on a Sampras or even Federer.

JY, does the video back up what I am postulating here. The first picture is just milliseconds further along in the action sequence than the second, but if the completion of the internal rotation is delayed until that later part of the motion, it is not going to be as effective in either developing power and spin or in releasing tension to protect the shoulder.

What do you think? Actually, we should know what you think. That is the whole point of the article. I think Maria would be a great candidate for my "burp" and "bubble" service drills. If you go to 8 minutes in on this clip, you can see me demonstrating and reviewing my "burp" and "bubble" drills with one of my students.

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Pro-Coach-Don-Brosseau-Serve/i-NkQg8HW/A

The full demonstration of the drill comes at 11:30. A more clarifying rear view comes at 12:00.

don

[jimlosaltos]

Djokovic's elbow

Would love to get your thoughts on my article, "Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve"

There were similar discussions on TV at Wimby of Novak Djokovic's greatly improved serve. One train of thought was, again, the altered elbow drop as supposedly illustrated here, a vidcap from ESPN.

Just FYI -- an earlier discussion by Darren Cahill, perhaps two years ago, blamed Djoko's serving problems instead on the lighter Head racket he used when he got the $20 million racket contract. Djokovic said "He couldn't feel where the racket was". Per Cahill, switching to the greater-swingweight racket he has today solved that. Just sharing info!

WimbyDjokoServeBeforeAfter-1 by james.fawcette, on Flickr

[jimlosaltos]

Pics/ examples Maria rotation

Would love to get your thoughts on my article, "Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve"

Here are 3 pics from the "Tour Portrait" TPN published of Maria, just in case people want to see more examples.

Rotation:
Sharapova_4JohnY_©jfawcette 2968 by james.fawcette, on Flickr

Not so much:

Sharapova_4JohnY_©jfawcette 2977 by james.fawcette, on Flickr


Not here, but she clearly gets the leg push John describes:

Sharapova_4JohnY_©jfawcette 2965 by james.fawcette, on Flickr