klacr Strokes

[gzhpcu]

You know, I noticed that to on this end and didn't say anything. We figured it probably was like Roscoe's at one time. I watched your video as well from another thread gzhpcu, and I like the toss. I'd be great if you could talk to me a bit about your toss.

Roscoe Tanner's serve. BTW, here is Roscoe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLATEORaB_M

I am flattered that you like my toss... you are being very generous... But what thread are you referring to?

BTW: I had an erratic toss and managed to correct it by starting with the palm of the hand facing down (Vic Braden again...)...

[hockeyscout]

I for one, love your serve. One minor difference I see to Roscoe's is that he leans more into the court, with his right leg kicking backwards, whereas your left leg goes off more to the side...

Just an observation, not saying which is better...

You know, I noticed that to on this end and didn't say anything. We figured it probably was like Roscoe's at one time. I watched your video as well from another thread gzhpcu, and I like the toss. I'd be great if you could talk to me a bit about your toss.

Roscoe Tanner's serve. BTW, here is Roscoe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLATEORaB_M

[gzhpcu]

I for one, love your serve. One minor difference I see to Roscoe's is that he leans more into the court, with his right leg kicking backwards, whereas your left leg goes off more to the side...

Just an observation, not saying which is better...

[klacr]

It's no wonder that it "feels" more natural…the one handed backhand is the most natural shot in tennis. With the proper grip and proper impact position it provides the most bang for the effort. You are really driving that ball and meeting it way out in front of you at the same point in time and space every single time. Nearly a full shoulder width in front of your front hip. I am dying to see the slice…I anticipate that it can take on some very wicked proportions.

There is no surprise that the backhand feels more comfortable as you have your whole body "fitted" to the ball including your grip. My guess is that you move your grip around to fit the shot that you are hitting. By moving your hand around on the grip and changing the point of impact you can easily change the "driver" into a "pitching wedge". No doubt you have much more variety of shot and touch with your backhand. The whole range from the drive to the feathered drop shot or deft lob.

If you notice that in every single one of your backhand shots that your feet are placed in the very exact position every single time. This also insures that your hips and shoulders are going to be in the very same exact position every single time. By taking the racquet back with a turn of your body you have insured that the racquet will begin it's forward motion from the very same position every single time. All of this adds up synchronistically speaking to the inner clock that see the ball as it bounces and naturally starts you towards the ball with the same rhythm and sense of balance.

When I stop the video at any point in your backhand swing you are always in the same proportionate position. That is…the body is always lined up with all the parts where they should be when they should be. When I do the same thing with your forehand the body parts may be lined up somewhat differently every time. You are lined up perfectly one time but the shoulders are way out ahead of everything another. Get my drift?

The backhand swing is therefore repeatable and is less susceptible too losing the feeling when you are under stress or are hurried. With the proper placement of the feet the hips are turning to the ball to initiate the swing every time at the same pace. No wonder…again that it feels more natural. The power is effortless and seamless. The irony is that if you desire your forehand to feel the same way as your forehand you must be able to duplicate this rhythm every single time with your swing and it will start with proper placement of the feet and lower body as I discussed with you earlier.

Notice too, that with the proper placement of the feet on the backhand you have engaged the lower body. Not only the lower body but the upper body is properly engaged in the chain to unload when the time is right. See that the upper part of your right shoulder and that part of the back immediately beneath it are actually facing the camera with your rotation into your backswing.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/roger-federer/

(Take a gander at frame #36 in Roger's backswing…the three lines of racquet, shoulders and feet. The vectors are all lined up…the ducks are all in a row. To go forwards. Swoosh! Shoulders slightly tilted and the front shoulder pointed at the ball. Front foot planted securely on the ground…heel too!)

The one little tiny suggestion that I have is on your backswing…you might play around with the height of your hand at the top of the swing. See how Roger Federer's racquet is tipped up more than yours. He keeps his arm closer to his body on the backswing and therefore the hand doesn't get so high either. It looks to me as if your backswing may be a tad high…afterall you are so huge it probably isn't necessary to take it back so high. I would suggest the same thing on your forehand as well.

Take advantage of your size…by making yourself smaller. More irony. On second thought…why not point that right shoulder a little more downwards at the ball with your arm tucked a little closer to your body on your drive as the upwards rotation of the shoulders on the forward swing will give some additional rpm's…which won't hurt things either. A little tilting in the shoulders may just press those boats into the earth a bit more and prevent you from lifting off of that back foot. Right heel to the ground…Big Guy.

So we borrow from the side that feels the most natural to duplicate that feeling on the other side of the body. Fortunately for you that you hit the ball flat and hard. If you were hitting the ball loopy and spinny it is a much more difficult fix.

Love the backhand. Compared to your backhand your forehand is a bit of a slap. The backhand is such a dynamic "stroke"…a rhythmic unfurling of events. Borrow from it to bolster the forehand. Balance the equation. Even though I know that you don't like the math.

Btw…once again…it's awfully cool of you to offer this feast! Meow...

Love my backhand. I'd be willing to made those tiny adjustments but not looking to change entire stroke obviously. Not that you are insinuating that. In fact, I need to use my comfort level on my backhand to teach my forehand. I can hit my backhand stepping in, moving wide, moving back deep, really anywhere and be completely confident in it. When I miss my backhand I'm pretty damn shocked. But that's rare.

I will showcase my slice in the next set of videos I'll post in a few weeks. I do enjoy my slice equally the same as my drive.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[hockeyscout]

What have we learned here?

Would someone mind making some "Cliff's Notes" and summarizing what we have learned here. I see so many parallels to Kyle, and my young daughter (the size factor, engagement, serve toss and a few other things especially) it'd be interesting to look over a summary of things and see what we could do to cross over some of this information into our realm of things.

[klacr]

First of all, remember we are just trying to find what we can do to make a good shot better. I think Jeff Counts posts #94 and 95 make pretty clear that the fundamental mechanics of Kyle's forehand are actually exceptional; nevertheless, I am asserting he can feel the ball even better and actually hit it "bigger" if you line up those damn vectors a little better, that is, get below the ball.

Second, I don't advocate a lot of spin. I want to see an elliptical ball path like Federer, not a parabolic one. As Lansdorp might say, we don't want to see "an academy ball". As well as Kyle strikes the ball, I don't think that will be a problem.

Third, tall players hitting flat shots. The ball doesn't know how tall you are. If you are playing world class competition, you might be hitting a significant number of balls at a height of 5' and more; but that is not likely with local Junior Veterans or even local Open players. You are going to have to be able to deal with balls near your knees, Kyle! Of course, you should take advantage when you can take balls higher up in your strike zone, but if I was playing you, why would I give you any of those?! But if you were 5' 6" tall, I would more likely hit you lots of balls above your strike zone.

As for the feeling of the racket head. You specifically mentioned swinging the tip of the racket. Admittedly, I'd like to see the original video to play in slomo and frame-by-frame stop action, better yet high speed slomo, but looking at the youtube clips, I get the impression that you are indeed swinging the tip and it is coming around a little too much instead of staying aligned towards the target through as much of the hitting zone as possible. Counts points out how well you are hitting most of the keypoints in Brian Gordon's Type III ATP forehand. But it is after the position that Jeff is highlighting that Federer puts himself in a different class from his contemporaries by keeping the face of the racket pointed at the target as the wrist acts as a passive hinge enabling and controlling the action I am talking about. The Wrist Assist is great for maintaining that position. Norman's "Secret" is almost better. It's impossible to tell in the youtube clips you've posted; we need high speed slomo, at least 100fps, preferably 210 or 240 or 300 to see what your wrist is doing through the "hitting zone" (a foot infront of and after contact). It's my contention that there is a little too much pressure in the fingers and you are "flipping" the racket head at the ball, granted effectively. I would like to see you hit the ball with more involvement of the lumbricales in the palm of your hand. Try hitting the ball, just easy, with no fingers on the grip, or try with just the middle finger and ring finger, everything else off. Then slip the fingers back on very gently. I could be dead wrong on this, but it's worth a try. I suspect the butt of the racket loses contact briefly with the heel of your hand as you start your swing forward; I don't want it to ever lose contact with the heel of your hand. If it does lose contact and then the little finger pulls it close just before contact, you are effectively powering your forehand with your little finger; not exclusively, but I think you get the idea.

I'm not trying to be negative, far from it; just wanted to clarify what I was saying. I'll be curious to hear if it makes any sense to you.

don

I will try this Don. Yes, it makes sense to me. Thanks.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[klacr]

Kyle's "slot" position is quite remarkable on the forehand. If you look at pro players at this stage, you see just what you see with Kyle. Elbow pulled forward of the the body plane. Racket parallel to the side (in the slot). And shoulders open.

What happens is along the lines of what Brian talks about in this month's article on the backhand. It's the sequencing of things - not the length of the stroke - that matters in the modern game. So the rotating shoulders start the sequence while the arm gets pulled and as the arm pulls forward the racket drags behind.

Here you can really see it with Kyle. The shoulders have finished rotating. The arm has pulled forward (note the elbow position and the angle of the upper arm). And the racket is the last chain in this sequence. It's big time technique that Kyle is demonstrating here.



I do agree with other posters that Kyle would benefit by getting the racket lowered sooner. He starts to pull when the racket is up high, which is different from the pro model. But man, that slot position is pretty and the way he uses his shoulder rotation followed by the pull, is just beautiful to watch.



Jeff

Here's an animation of what I'm talking about in the above post. Watch how Kyle uses his shoulder rotation to start the sequence, which is followed by the pulling of the arm forward, followed by the racket which is in the slot position.

Two other standouts for me are Kyle's awesome use of his left arm. He really keeps his left hand on the racket head (right by his right ear) to get a great shoulder coil. And then start the uncoiling of the shoulders by sweeping the left hand to his opposite side.

And second, his balance and center of gravity are fantastic. He is not leaning forward or backwards. Just a solid center of gravity around which his upper body rotates.

This is amazing. Thanks Jeff. Appreciate the kind words. Boost of confidence to the shot to know I am doing a few things right. Still have a ways to go though. The side by side of Ferrero and I is great. Really puts it into perspective. The steep angle that I am approaching the ball at is scary. Actually more amazing that I can hit my forehand as decent as I can consistently when doing that. Eye-opening stuff.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

The klacr backhand…natural timing

Backhand: I really enjoy hitting my backhand. I'm comfortable with it. I like to hit it from all areas and all angles. I have variety and it just feels natural.
Take a look...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEN_TEQs8zo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJv8MRLEmJs

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

It's no wonder that it "feels" more natural…the one handed backhand is the most natural shot in tennis. With the proper grip and proper impact position it provides the most bang for the effort. You are really driving that ball and meeting it way out in front of you at the same point in time and space every single time. Nearly a full shoulder width in front of your front hip. I am dying to see the slice…I anticipate that it can take on some very wicked proportions.

There is no surprise that the backhand feels more comfortable as you have your whole body "fitted" to the ball including your grip. My guess is that you move your grip around to fit the shot that you are hitting. By moving your hand around on the grip and changing the point of impact you can easily change the "driver" into a "pitching wedge". No doubt you have much more variety of shot and touch with your backhand. The whole range from the drive to the feathered drop shot or deft lob.

If you notice that in every single one of your backhand shots that your feet are placed in the very exact position every single time. This also insures that your hips and shoulders are going to be in the very same exact position every single time. By taking the racquet back with a turn of your body you have insured that the racquet will begin it's forward motion from the very same position every single time. All of this adds up synchronistically speaking to the inner clock that see the ball as it bounces and naturally starts you towards the ball with the same rhythm and sense of balance.

When I stop the video at any point in your backhand swing you are always in the same proportionate position. That is…the body is always lined up with all the parts where they should be when they should be. When I do the same thing with your forehand the body parts may be lined up somewhat differently every time. You are lined up perfectly one time but the shoulders are way out ahead of everything another. Get my drift?

The backhand swing is therefore repeatable and is less susceptible too losing the feeling when you are under stress or are hurried. With the proper placement of the feet the hips are turning to the ball to initiate the swing every time at the same pace. No wonder…again that it feels more natural. The power is effortless and seamless. The irony is that if you desire your forehand to feel the same way as your forehand you must be able to duplicate this rhythm every single time with your swing and it will start with proper placement of the feet and lower body as I discussed with you earlier.

Notice too, that with the proper placement of the feet on the backhand you have engaged the lower body. Not only the lower body but the upper body is properly engaged in the chain to unload when the time is right. See that the upper part of your right shoulder and that part of the back immediately beneath it are actually facing the camera with your rotation into your backswing.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/roger-federer/

(Take a gander at frame #36 in Roger's backswing…the three lines of racquet, shoulders and feet. The vectors are all lined up…the ducks are all in a row. To go forwards. Swoosh! Shoulders slightly tilted and the front shoulder pointed at the ball. Front foot planted securely on the ground…heel too!)

The one little tiny suggestion that I have is on your backswing…you might play around with the height of your hand at the top of the swing. See how Roger Federer's racquet is tipped up more than yours. He keeps his arm closer to his body on the backswing and therefore the hand doesn't get so high either. It looks to me as if your backswing may be a tad high…afterall you are so huge it probably isn't necessary to take it back so high. I would suggest the same thing on your forehand as well.

Take advantage of your size…by making yourself smaller. More irony. On second thought…why not point that right shoulder a little more downwards at the ball with your arm tucked a little closer to your body on your drive as the upwards rotation of the shoulders on the forward swing will give some additional rpm's…which won't hurt things either. A little tilting in the shoulders may just press those boats into the earth a bit more and prevent you from lifting off of that back foot. Right heel to the ground…Big Guy.

So we borrow from the side that feels the most natural to duplicate that feeling on the other side of the body. Fortunately for you that you hit the ball flat and hard. If you were hitting the ball loopy and spinny it is a much more difficult fix.

Love the backhand. Compared to your backhand your forehand is a bit of a slap. The backhand is such a dynamic "stroke"…a rhythmic unfurling of events. Borrow from it to bolster the forehand. Balance the equation. Even though I know that you don't like the math.

Btw…once again…it's awfully cool of you to offer this feast! Meow...

[tennis_chiro]

My neck is good. Feels fine. Just more of a mental scare after the past year that prevented me. I am physically capable of doing anything, full extension, more leg drive, run through walls...you name it. .

Like a swiss watch huh? That's what I want. So my serve is not Krajicek esque? That's disappointing but good to know. Going back to look at video I'm seeing it now. I still like my serve but this post is very eye-opening and although many on this thread complimented me on it, I have some really good signs and potential in the motion but I know I know it can get better. How much technical change and impact will it take to get closer to Krajicek without losing or tweaking my natural strengths executed in my current serve?

Your link to the figure 8 does not work. Takes me to page with no navigation. Bummer.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Kyle, you are very close to having a Krajicek-esque rhythm to your serve, but there is one essential difference you would have to address. The guys with the true front-to-back-to-front rock like Krajicek (Newcombe, Smith, Stich) never get the weight all the way to the back foot; they only go back to about 50/50. I used to be able to break almost all good serve motions into one of two divisions: Sampras-like Back-to-front or Stich/Krajicek-like Front-to-back-to-front. And I didn't count the action as really starting until the hands started to move. But now there are a lot of front-to-back-middle-to-front and back-to-middle-to-front actions because of the increased use of the platform stance and increased emphasis on huge leg drive from a position that is really more in the middle of front and back.

The Swiss watch aspect: Here is how I see the Newcombe/Smith/Krajicek/Stich motion: As the weight moves back to even from the front foot, the hands go down together; as the hands go up, the weight moves back to the front getting almost completely there by the time the left hand completes its upward motion (righty). To train this rhythm in deeply, we use the toss-and-catch drill running the motion forwards and backwards, but always with the synchronized hands-down, weight-back /hands-up, weight-forward. And the rock back and forth is almost a bounce off the back foot (I sometimes place a ball under the heel of the right foot to push the server back to the front). When you feel the synchronization of the hand action and the rock of the weight, you have the repeatability of a Swiss watch.

But you also need to do this without rushing and thereby getting to reach all the way up to your full extension.

I don't know why the link to the videos doesn't work; it worked for me right out of your post. But here are some direct links:

Front_Back_Front_Alt_Backswings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNIXPtx5J3g

FeetForwardFig8FromDeuce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22IeFCPYOd0

BasicFig8FromDeuce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaS-qtQWym4

Link to a bunch of videos in Connecticut, 2012:

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis

[hockeyscout]

tennis_chiro and jeffreycounts -- you've taken this one to a whole new level. Nice to read. Quite a lot to chew on.

[tennis_chiro]

tennis_chiro,

I appreciate your observations, time and thoughts. Happy you are able to add to the thread as I know you are full of ideas, opinions and experience.

First and foremost, I'm glad you're a genius to figure it out because I don't get any of the physics calculations/numbers. Not the best math student

Great information about getting below the ball. I'm well aware of its importance but have the fear in back of my mind that if I start brushing up and through the ball it becomes too loopy and I'll lose the pace and penetration. Is there a spectrum for how much topspin is necessary for players of certain heights? A range of correctness if you will for how much spin I can possibly hit while still maintaining aggression and driving through the shot. It's all degrees and vectors and angle of approach I'm sure but taller players can get away with less, no? If I was 5'6" instead of 6'6" would I have these issues? Probably not.

I love the fact you mention your article on timing and feel. It's actually one of my favorites and I reference it often. Maybe instead of referencing it to my friends and students I should start following it. To be honest, I thought I was. I really do feel like I feel the racquet head and certainly much more than many of my contemporaries. My timing is there as it has to be to hit the ball like I do, no?

I do have the wrist assist at my club and have used it on myself and my students. Using it, I still hit the ball "flat". I really like to push my shoulder into the shot when I should probably use my legs and hips. They are very strong and those are my moneymakers after all.

At the end of the day, it's about getting my racquet head below the ball. When I'm playing points and pushed back with more time I can manage it but in a neutral position or given any time I step up, in and like to slug it.

Seeing my strokes on video is an eye opening experience and creates so many more questions. I love it.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

First of all, remember we are just trying to find what we can do to make a good shot better. I think Jeff Counts posts #94 and 95 make pretty clear that the fundamental mechanics of Kyle's forehand are actually exceptional; nevertheless, I am asserting he can feel the ball even better and actually hit it "bigger" if you line up those damn vectors a little better, that is, get below the ball.

Second, I don't advocate a lot of spin. I want to see an elliptical ball path like Federer, not a parabolic one. As Lansdorp might say, we don't want to see "an academy ball". As well as Kyle strikes the ball, I don't think that will be a problem.

Third, tall players hitting flat shots. The ball doesn't know how tall you are. If you are playing world class competition, you might be hitting a significant number of balls at a height of 5' and more; but that is not likely with local Junior Veterans or even local Open players. You are going to have to be able to deal with balls near your knees, Kyle! Of course, you should take advantage when you can take balls higher up in your strike zone, but if I was playing you, why would I give you any of those?! But if you were 5' 6" tall, I would more likely hit you lots of balls above your strike zone.

As for the feeling of the racket head. You specifically mentioned swinging the tip of the racket. Admittedly, I'd like to see the original video to play in slomo and frame-by-frame stop action, better yet high speed slomo, but looking at the youtube clips, I get the impression that you are indeed swinging the tip and it is coming around a little too much instead of staying aligned towards the target through as much of the hitting zone as possible. Counts points out how well you are hitting most of the keypoints in Brian Gordon's Type III ATP forehand. But it is after the position that Jeff is highlighting that Federer puts himself in a different class from his contemporaries by keeping the face of the racket pointed at the target as the wrist acts as a passive hinge enabling and controlling the action I am talking about. The Wrist Assist is great for maintaining that position. Norman's "Secret" is almost better. It's impossible to tell in the youtube clips you've posted; we need high speed slomo, at least 100fps, preferably 210 or 240 or 300 to see what your wrist is doing through the "hitting zone" (a foot infront of and after contact). It's my contention that there is a little too much pressure in the fingers and you are "flipping" the racket head at the ball, granted effectively. I would like to see you hit the ball with more involvement of the lumbricales in the palm of your hand. Try hitting the ball, just easy, with no fingers on the grip, or try with just the middle finger and ring finger, everything else off. Then slip the fingers back on very gently. I could be dead wrong on this, but it's worth a try. I suspect the butt of the racket loses contact briefly with the heel of your hand as you start your swing forward; I don't want it to ever lose contact with the heel of your hand. If it does lose contact and then the little finger pulls it close just before contact, you are effectively powering your forehand with your little finger; not exclusively, but I think you get the idea.

I'm not trying to be negative, far from it; just wanted to clarify what I was saying. I'll be curious to hear if it makes any sense to you.

don

[gzhpcu]

I remember that to get the feel of lowering the racket head when hitting the ball, I had a pro once give me a baseball bat and would stand in front of me and slowly feed me balls. Since the bat was so heavy, it forced supination in the forearm. So the impact point was no longer at hand level. It gave me the feeling I needed to then apply it to the forehand. Maybe you might consider trying it out?

[jeffreycounts]

Here's an animation of what I'm talking about in the above post. Watch how Kyle uses his shoulder rotation to start the sequence, which is followed by the pulling of the arm forward, followed by the racket which is in the slot position.

Two other standouts for me are Kyle's awesome use of his left arm. He really keeps his left hand on the racket head (right by his right ear) to get a great shoulder coil. And then start the uncoiling of the shoulders by sweeping the left hand to his opposite side.

And second, his balance and center of gravity are fantastic. He is not leaning forward or backwards. Just a solid center of gravity around which his upper body rotates.

[jeffreycounts]

Kyle's "slot" position on the forehand

Kyle's "slot" position is quite remarkable on the forehand. If you look at pro players at this stage, you see just what you see with Kyle. Elbow pulled forward of the the body plane. Racket parallel to the side (in the slot). And shoulders open.

What happens is along the lines of what Brian talks about in this month's article on the backhand. It's the sequencing of things - not the length of the stroke - that matters in the modern game. So the rotating shoulders start the sequence while the arm gets pulled and as the arm pulls forward the racket drags behind.

Here you can really see it with Kyle. The shoulders have finished rotating. The arm has pulled forward (note the elbow position and the angle of the upper arm). And the racket is the last chain in this sequence. It's big time technique that Kyle is demonstrating here.



I do agree with other posters that Kyle would benefit by getting the racket lowered sooner. He starts to pull when the racket is up high, which is different from the pro model. But man, that slot position is pretty and the way he uses his shoulder rotation followed by the pull, is just beautiful to watch.



Jeff

[klacr]

I have a little different take on this, Stotty. I think the ideal serve is hit right at the top or within about 2 inches of the top of the toss, but not on the way up. Hit at the top, it looks like it is hit on the way up, but this is rarely the case. When you hit the ball at the top of the toss, you catch the opponent a little bit off guard because they are so used to focusing on the ball after it reaches the top of the toss and starts to come down. But you have to get to full extension; I don't think Kyle quite makes that. We really need some good slomo that we can watch frame-by-frame. His neck issues could be clouding the situation a bit.

But for me, when you catch the ball right at the top of the toss, everything has to fit together perfectly, like a Swiss watch. I like the simple front-back-front motions of Krajicek, Stitch and you, Stotty. The rhythm holds everything together like a lynchpin. And when you catch the ball right at the top of the toss, that lynchpin has a very exact fit. Tough to learn, but once you have it, it works really well, like a Swiss watch.

In reality, however, Kyle does not have the same rock as Stitch or Krajicek. He is actually more like a Sampras just going from back to front. Although he apparently starts with his weight forward, his hands don't move until he has brought the weight all the way back. It's a good consistent rhythm, but I don't like the fact the ball bounce is actually part of the overall motion. I always say if the ball bounces off a bump to a different spot it changes your whole motion. I want to start in exactly the same way every time.

that's all for now, but you really ought to try some of my "feet together forward figure 8" hits. Look up some of my drills on youtube at my channel, GlobalTennisDC or go to the video lessons at http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sp...rosseau-tennis.


don

My neck is good. Feels fine. Just more of a mental scare after the past year that prevented me. I am physically capable of doing anything, full extension, more leg drive, run through walls...you name it. .

Like a swiss watch huh? That's what I want. So my serve is not Krajicek esque? That's disappointing but good to know. Going back to look at video I'm seeing it now. I still like my serve but this post is very eye-opening and although many on this thread complimented me on it, I have some really good signs and potential in the motion but I know I know it can get better. How much technical change and impact will it take to get closer to Krajicek without losing or tweaking my natural strengths executed in my current serve?

Your link to the figure 8 does not work. Takes me to page with no navigation. Bummer.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton