The ATP Two Handed Backhand: The Forward Swing

[BrianGordon]

Sorry to obsess about same question. I thought it might come from lateral flexion but felt I was negatively impacting posture when I saw result from students. I feel uncomfortable telling them to raise trapezius to achieve position. So I have know idea myself so asking you. Again thanks Brian.

Yeah - I don't know either - especially since I can't hit a 2 hander. As I play with the positions though I do notice that a certain amount of scapular elevation is needed because the top arm is on top. Also, I can feel some potentially beneficial stretching in the scapular region and probably the ability to recruit and or place shoulder complex/trunk muscles in better mechanical position.

To be honest though, the marker placement in my measurement system precludes me from isolating scapular rotation from torso rotation (at least in the field) so I'm going to have to play the dah card... for now - it is an interesting idea for future study though as is the motion of shoulder complex (as opposed to shoulder joint) in all strokes in general.

In the meantime I'll have some of my "lab rats" play with positions and see what they say and do, and... for now I'll allow slight elevation but I won't be explaining it as leaning in like I was taught back in the day

Great observations!!!

[stotty]

It's a superb article. I am going to read it a few times over to fully grasp it. I am really looking forward to any upcoming tips in the next article that will enable me to teach it to students.

When did all this stuff start happening? Is flipping primarily a product (helped along by) of the modern technology?

And another question (to anyone out there). I was looking in the archive to see where Borg stands in all this. When did Borg start hitting a full two-hander and stop releasing the left arm just after contact? In 1981 he had a one-and-half-handed backhand (as don_budge affectionately calls it) yet the archive shows him with a two-hander from start to finish. Take a look...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/bjorn-borg/

Strange what you can stumble across when you were primarily looking for something else.

[bobbyswift]

Thank you for the great work and quick reply to my question.

[10splayer]

To me, the take home point is that vertical RHS/spin and in some ways trajectory, are principally a result of joint rotations and not path...Sure, path is part of the equation, but not to the same extent as when i was growing up.

When i was learning the game (pushing 50) "wiping" the ball was HIGHLY discouraged.. pushing the racquet thru hitting zone, finish on edge etc...However, when the arm doesn't rotate in the forward swing the only variable in the creation of topspin IS the path. I.E steepen for topspin and shallow for flat/velocity... The downside to this model is the DIRECT inverse relationship between the two. One comes at the expense of the other.

What the guys are doing now, (and the real advantage to arm rotation) is that the hand path can remain relatively shallow (and retain ball speed) while wiping on the ball to create significant spin..In other words, there isn't such an adverse relationship between the two elements..(spin/ball speed)


Just my 02 cents

[John Yandell]

Stotty,
I think that's great. I think it shows the LTA subscription is having an impact.


10S Player

And a valuable 2 cents and something I am actually addressing in an upcoming article.

[bobbyswift]

One more question for Brian. I find it very difficult to help student with bending right arm on right handed two hander. Also wondering if protraction is the key to the shape I see of the two arms at contact. I feel this might be a key ingredient. Am I off base or on to something helpful.

[bobbyswift]

One last question. The pull with the right hand appears to be in the direction of 45 degrees to the right of player. How are you explaining the direction of the pull?

[BrianGordon]

One more question for Brian. I find it very difficult to help student with bending right arm on right handed two hander. Also wondering if protraction is the key to the shape I see of the two arms at contact. I feel this might be a key ingredient. Am I off base or on to something helpful.

Sorry bobbyswift - got tied up and haven't had time to respond. Protraction is a probably a factor - I think the key to the shape is a choice that brings about the dynamic consequences I discussed such as push-pull and right arm shoulder IR contribution to racquet head velocity. Its been my experience that most players will naturally bend the right if the left is straight - the issue I have is that the bent arm tends to be pinned against the torso rather than progressing forward.

[BrianGordon]

One last question. The pull with the right hand appears to be in the direction of 45 degrees to the right of player. How are you explaining the direction of the pull?

Not sure what you mean here - are we talking about the initial pull direction at the start of the forward swing or its direction as it bends approaching contact?

[bobbyswift]

If you look at Jim Courier wide front in the archives my question is how you would fix his left arm approaching contact and what you would say to him about his right arm. Thanks for your reply.

[BrianGordon]

If you look at Jim Courier wide front in the archives my question is how you would fix his left arm approaching contact and what you would say to him about his right arm. Thanks for your reply.

Whoa... have not seen that backhand for awhile. It is clearly right arm dominated through contact and therefore that technique package may have been best for that approach - certainly the configuration I describe doesn't work if one wants/needs the right arm to dominate through contact.

Amazing how short the forward swing is with the left arm (and right really) doing the opposite of the model I describe - quite unique really and probably pretty strength dependent.

So... if a junior player came to me with that I would break it apart totally by extending the backswing, building in the left shoulder targeted slot, redefining the relative roles of the arms, etc. etc.

On the other hand it does demonstrate there are a lot of ways to get the job done - I guess the question will always be: what is best for each individual.

[bobbyswift]

Thanks again.

[bobbyswift]

Sorry Brian. One more question. The wrist is in flexion as it approaches contact then looks like it goes into flexion as the left arm internally rotates more. Is this movement vital to the acceleration. Also wondering what you think of players hitting left handed forehands to improve two hander. It seems like what you have identified as the hands coupling is way more important. I have not seen any benefit from lefty forehand practice.

[BrianGordon]

Sorry Brian. One more question. The wrist is in flexion as it approaches contact then looks like it goes into flexion as the left arm internally rotates more. Is this movement vital to the acceleration. Also wondering what you think of players hitting left handed forehands to improve two hander. It seems like what you have identified as the hands coupling is way more important. I have not seen any benefit from lefty forehand practice.

I believe you refer to the right wrist. The flexion of that wrist allows the flip to occur. The extension (think you mean???) near (and through) contact facilitates the left arm twisting rotation and appears to fine tune (attenuate or potentiate) the turning effect of the push-pull.

Actually I use the left handed forehand a lot (hundreds/week) to train elbow straightening and acceleration through the torso rotation, and to work on the efficacy of that arm's shoulder internal rotation to produce spin. Its part of a progression I use to build and train the stroke from the contact point backward.

I will explain the latter in an upcoming article about techniques I use to teach and develop this type of stroke.

[bobbyswift]

Yes that is what I meant. Again thanks for the response. Your knowledge is a vast resource to all of us.