The "Body Fly" shot - a Fantasy

[10splayer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but angular momentum is a constant (can't increase) once a player leaves the ground.

My position is that this is related mostly to contact height.

[GeoffWilliams]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but angular momentum is a constant (can't increase) once a player leaves the ground.

My position is that this is related mostly to contact height.

Coiled power has nothing to do with contact height, and everything to do with a coiled leg drive, a coiled shoulder turn, and coiled racquet back, a coiled foot work placement and a mind set to coil extremely and release extremely.

[10splayer]

Coiled power has nothing to do with contact height, and everything to do with a coiled leg drive, a coiled shoulder turn, and coiled racquet back, a coiled foot work placement and a mind set to coil extremely and release extremely.

Uhhhh Geoff,

"Coiled Power" occurs at all contact heights. Whether or not a player does a "body fly" or whatever you call it, has a lot to do with contact height...

[tennis_chiro]

I guess it is the launching that bothers me

Yes, Geoff, I think you are right.

Its important to notice what Geoff did not say. He did not use the words skip, hop or jump.

He also said something key:

"Just like many other sports."

Girls tennis is different than mens.

A woman had better be able to do what Geoff describes.

Especially one who plans to serve and volley, transition and charge the net (as we plan do, its more interesting). Who wants to stand on the baseline and coil at the age of eight or nine? Jesus? Let them have fun, and freak out like the kids do in other sports!

So, tennis_chiro, my young one does not jump into shots as has been alluded.

She launches (when she needs to or the situation calls for it), steps, drives through the ball and doesn't sell out after the shot (we've really improved the activations after the shot), and a whole assortment of other things which are to complex to cover.

BTW, see these photos.

You cannot get into this position by jumping. Try this at home. Actually, don't. Its a tough setup. When her flexibility comes when she gets older I think she will have a real nice anti-technique style that will lend well to where I see the pro game is headed towards.

I am not sure our style would lend itself well to the mens game, as the points are longer. Woman's tennis should be a lot of 1 (aces, however, not a lot of great servers, this is our strength), 3 and 5 ball points, so, its a fit for our style, and how Geoff see's things.

It may work what we are doing, and it may not. However, if you train a kid to hit circus shots, think outside the box, do the impossible then they will be athletic and creative as hell and easily able to play serve and volley tennis, or whatever style gets thrown their way.

You can always switch to the current paradigm of boring, un-athletic baseline tennis where everyone is playing like stickmen, and we do this all the time, however, it is boring for her and I think she'd quit playing this style everyone teaches as it is not intellectually stimulating.

As we say ...

"Fly like a beaver!"

And, yes, her dorsiflexion has come along light years since we posted here





PS: To Don Budge, if she followed the Bill Tilden book she'd have quit tennis. Serious. If I would have put her in traditional coaching and let someone handle it she would have picked another sport where she could roam free like basketball, hockey, soccer. Young kids are not interested in old man's tactics, sorry, at least mine isn't. They want to be free to be creative (maybe it is just mine) and play for hours on end till mom calls you home cause it is dark! You call it fundamentals, and my kids calls it, "Get off the court man! I want to play like Sean Kemp, Micheal Jordan, Bo Jackson and Wayne Gretzky and not play like the pro's on TV!" I wanna try new stuff man, and experiment. Cool! If I listened to the Russian coaches she would not be serving and volleying, running, laughing and enjoying the game more than any other kid in the world. NBA kids in the poor ghettos figured out how to transform the NBA into a high flying circus, and I think if we put up more courts, left kids alone and created better learning environments kids would do the same thing in tennis. Well, I know it. I've seen the traditional tennis systems results. Just my opinion, watch my kid hit the tennis ball and judge what I say based on how she plays. As you always say, the proof is in the pudding.

Respect to you all.

HS,
I'll grant you that she is doing something different from jumping into the ball and launching may be a good term for what she is doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzTOWrEAqgc

It seems to me she is trying to gain additional power on her shots with her own linear movement through the shot. But I feel like she is doing it at the expense of exactly the real source of power that correlates nicely with Geoff's exhortation to coil. We humans exert our real power through levers and pulleys and bones and muscles and ligaments and tendons winding and unwinding, or coiling and uncoiling. We turn limbs around fixed points converting angular momentum and rotational forces into linear forces we can apply to a ball, whether it is a golf ball, tennis ball, baseball or soccer ball. There may be some additional heft to a shot because of increased linear speed as we execute a particular throw, hit or kick, but this is very small compared to the great forces that are generated by all those pulleys and levers. And when the ball is moving so fast, such movement can compromise timing and efficiency and accuracy as well as power. You may maintain that your daughter is not jumping to hit the ball, but rather launching through it, but I would say that she is launching herself at the ball. I've seen some amazing skills demonstrated by all kinds of people on youtube not to mention in Cirque du Soleil, so there is very little that the human body cannot learn to do beyond our simple imaginations, but I think the launching is going to make things too difficult for her in the long run. In addition, you may dismiss my point about difficulty in recovery, but recovery is a very real concern, especially when the best play the best. It may be true that women don't recover as well now as the men, but that differential between the sexes is almost certain to shrink a great deal in the next few years as women become better and better athletes. Tennis is still probably the most lucrative sport for women athletes. They may or may not be the best women athletes, but I would venture that Serena, Maria and Li Na made more money altogether last year than any other 5 women athletes from all sports. Such financial rewards will draw more and more competition.

[tennis_chiro]

Thought about it a little more

Had a few more minutes to look at the video a little more. Her front foot may still be on the ground when she contacts the ball, but I really think the coiling/uncoiling is compromised by the "launching". I was trying to think of other things that would make it clearer. I don't know of anyone who stresses "hitting through" the shot more than I do. I want the racket to stay on that path as long as possible. You could say the launch movement enhances the time the strings are moving in the direction of the target enabling you to transfer more energy to the ball; but I think you sacrificed too much. I like to bring things out by going to extremes to make subtle differences become clear; that's why I sometimes have my students swing or even hit with a weighted racket.

So what extreme example could I use to make my point. I'm not a track and field guy, but in pure power terms, shot put, discuss and hammer come to mind. The "launch" approach could be effective in the shot put as a 5 mph improvement in the throw of a 16 lb. shot might be significant and the motion is such that it lends itself to a launch kind of a follow through, although I'm not sure if you are allowed to step beyond the boundary of the throwing circle even after the shot has left your hand. But I think the power a tennis swing uses is more comparable to the hammer or the discuss where something is being swung at the end of a lever arm or, better yet, a chain. How would the "launch" approach work with a hammer or a discuss; I think it would interfere with the effectiveness of the basic rotational throw.

I think your daughter needs to get a little less lateral or forward linear movement through her forehand and that would help her to get more of a coil/ uncoil action into her shot. Just look at the movement of her shoulders. An open stance forehand these days often gets a full 180 degrees of rotation; she is a good 45 degrees short of that. There could still be some element of that full finish toward the front with some linear movement, but you are going to be able to generate a lot more force from the coiling/uncoiling of the motion when the fulcrum is set solidly. In addition, you get better consistency and accuracy.

"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." - Archimedes quotes from BrainyQuote.com.

don

[tennis_chiro]

Obviously, this is important to me. I have a lot of problem with my own students that slide, lunge or actually try to jump into their forehands, when they should just be turning through the shot.

don

[gzhpcu]

I think the difference is that if I deliberately jump I am losing power and torque, but if I end up in the air as a consequence of having used the ground to generate power and torque, then OK, but it must be timed correctly. Leave the ground too soon and you lose momentum...

[stotty]

To leave or not to leave...

We humans exert our real power through levers and pulleys and bones and muscles and ligaments and tendons winding and unwinding, or coiling and uncoiling. We turn limbs around fixed points converting angular momentum and rotational forces into linear forces we can apply to a ball, whether it is a golf ball, tennis ball, baseball or soccer ball. There may be some additional heft to a shot because of increased linear speed as we execute a particular throw, hit or kick, but this is very small compared to the great forces that are generated by all those pulleys and levers. And when the ball is moving so fast, such movement can compromise timing and efficiency and accuracy as well as power.

I think the difference is that if I deliberately jump I am losing power and torque, but if I end up in the air as a consequence of having used the ground to generate power and torque, then OK

If the game became even more powerful (due to limpets teeth; recently discovered to be the strongest material known to man) and tennis became all about the "first strike", then moving forward and launching may become a feasible option. At the moment we are nowhere near it. A player's recovery is too severely compromised by doing so. The women's game could move forward by learning from the top men; move better, defend better.

Phil and tennis_chiro are right in my view...leave the ground as a consequence or don't leave it at all.

[don_budge]

Total Bullshit...

PS: To Don Budge, if she followed the Bill Tilden book she'd have quit tennis. Serious. If I would have put her in traditional coaching and let someone handle it she would have picked another sport where she could roam free like basketball, hockey, soccer. Young kids are not interested in old man's tactics, sorry, at least mine isn't. They want to be free to be creative (maybe it is just mine) and play for hours on end till mom calls you home cause it is dark! You call it fundamentals, and my kids calls it, "Get off the court man! I want to play like Sean Kemp, Micheal Jordan, Bo Jackson and Wayne Gretzky and not play like the pro's on TV!" I wanna try new stuff man, and experiment. Cool! If I listened to the Russian coaches she would not be serving and volleying, running, laughing and enjoying the game more than any other kid in the world. NBA kids in the poor ghettos figured out how to transform the NBA into a high flying circus, and I think if we put up more courts, left kids alone and created better learning environments kids would do the same thing in tennis. Well, I know it. I've seen the traditional tennis systems results. Just my opinion, watch my kid hit the tennis ball and judge what I say based on how she plays. As you always say, the proof is in the pudding.

Respect to you all.

"Respect to you all." Total Bullshit.

Thanks so much for addressing your note to me but if you had any sense or intelligence about you…any kind of tennis acumen you would realize the you are talking to yourself and paraphrasing me totally out of context. Go ahead and turn tennis into a "high flying circus" act as you put it. We'll see about that. Pure and utter nonsense.

Class? What is class?

The fact is I have a teaching paradigm that I quote here and there. This is not to be mistaken for the student's contribution to the equation. As a teacher I stress fundamentals…this is true. But then it's up to the student to take it to the next level and make it their own. You are a complete idiot if you truly believe what you have written directed at me.

My teaching paradigm begins with Bill Tilden and it connects the dots all the way to Roger Federer. I don't go out and hit the ball for them…nor do I want to. I want them to take responsibility for their own beings…a lesson that will help them all of their lives. But you have gone way beyond this of course. hockeyscout…the tennis expert. The tennis teacher…by the way…have you ever actually taught anyone how to play tennis? I have. Or are you just all talk? Can you even play yourself? I can.

"Body Fly"…when monkeys fly out of your butt. Good luck…hockeyscout.

[hockeyscout]

"Respect to you all." Total Bullshit.

Thanks so much for addressing your note to me but if you had any sense or intelligence about you…any kind of tennis acumen you would realize the you are talking to yourself and paraphrasing me totally out of context. Go ahead and turn tennis into a "high flying circus" act as you put it. We'll see about that. Pure and utter nonsense.

Class? What is class?

The fact is I have a teaching paradigm that I quote here and there. This is not to be mistaken for the student's contribution to the equation. As a teacher I stress fundamentals…this is true. But then it's up to the student to take it to the next level and make it their own. You are a complete idiot if you truly believe what you have written directed at me.

My teaching paradigm begins with Bill Tilden and it connects the dots all the way to Roger Federer. I don't go out and hit the ball for them…nor do I want to. I want them to take responsibility for their own beings…a lesson that will help them all of their lives. But you have gone way beyond this of course. hockeyscout…the tennis expert. The tennis teacher…by the way…have you ever actually taught anyone how to play tennis? I have. Or are you just all talk? Can you even play yourself? I can.

"Body Fly"…when monkeys fly out of your butt. Good luck…hockeyscout.

Everyone is an idiot, and you are the best. I know.

I didn't play tennis coming up in the north pole don_budge.
I just have one question for you?

But, what are your results in the past ten years?

Zero.

Why don't you take your ideas to the USTA or Swedish Tennis Federation.

They'd ask:

"Who have you developed in the past ten years? We'd like to see your methodology in action."

You'd say:

"I teach kids to love the game, character and no kids have walked into my facility who want to be pro's."

And after that they'd say:

"LOL. Sure. We have experts, and its handled. Thanks."

Same here.

Good luck with your developmental model, however, to me it looks like you haven't found the answers, developed good players and are beating your head against a wall doing the same things over and over again which clearly don't work.

Come to the Ukraine. Sit. Watch. Observe. Learn from a good program, what we do and why we do it. Stay on the sidelines. Don't distract anyone or ask stupid questions.

If you think you are a good player, I have better working for me, playing their hearts out daily.

Please stop with this nonsense.

Geez.

PS:

And, yes, Bill Tilden is old man tennis. And a convicted pedofile. In no other sport does anyone quote a 1940's manually from a sexually depraved individual. Every time you mention the guy you lose a lot of credibility, and frankly, worry me. Who supports the works of a guy who screws little boys, or even mentions it? It weirds me out, and if a coach ever mentioned that name around a player of mine, or came into a facility I owned stating this I'd ban him for life.

And, sorry, in 2021 to 2040 Nadal will be old man tennis as well. Progress. Jimmy Connors is great, love the backhand, however, John Yandell opened up my eyes when he said Nadal would kill him with his new age uncle developed tactics, and he is right. We really do not know what is possible in the game of tennis as billions have not been invested in it's technical development, and understanding like other sports. The game changes, and I think by 2021 to 2030 we'll see a whole new generation of players who were developed in team athletic settings with an emphasis on transferring over cross sports training to tennis. The game has to get much more athletic, and it also needs more people who think outside the box and are not stuck in the Tilden paradigm. Just my opinion. Nothing personal.

[don_budge]

hockeyscout + tennis = utter nonsense

Everyone is an idiot, and you are the best. I know.

I didn't play tennis coming up in the north pole don_budge. Frankly speaking, if you played soccer or tennis in Canada you were kind of seen as a wuss, and you'd get beat. Why would I play tennis? I moved south when I was 13, I was 6'4, and athletic, it would be the last thing I'd do. The kids who could not play with us big boys in hockey, basketball and football would go and play soccer - tennis (or the rich kids would go to the country club). It was not the cultural thing to do in Canada, sorry.

My young one decided tennis over hockey. Its her thing, not mine.

I just have one question for you?

But, what are your results in the past ten years?

Zero.

Why don't you take your ideas to the USTA or Swedish Tennis Federation.

They'd ask:

"Who have you developed in the past ten years? We'd like to see your methodology in action."

You'd say:

"I teach kids to love the game, character and no kids have walked into my facility who want to be pro's."

And after that they'd say:

"LOL. Sure. We have experts, and its handled. Thanks."

Same here.

Good luck with your developmental model, however, to me it looks like you haven't found the answers, developed good players and are beating your head against a wall doing the same things over and over again which clearly don't work.

Come to the Ukraine. We'll teach you the game. If you're going to talk down to me, I can do the same. And, if you are such a great coach I wonder why your results are not the same as ours. I'd be happy to come play any kid in your country using your methodology that you train. That is cold, hard reality, and I say nothing different to you that any program, coach, association and top player hasn't already said to you.

Please stop with this nonsense.

Geez.

PS: And, yes, Bill Tilden is old man tennis. And a convicted pedofile. In no other sport does anyone quote a 1940's manually from a sexually depraved individual. Every time you mention the guy you lose a lot of credibility, and frankly, worry me. Who supports the works of a guy who screws little boys, and mentions it? Its weirds me out.

And, sorry, in 2021 to 2040 Nadal will be old man tennis as well. Progress. Jimmy Connors is great, love the backhand, however, John Yandell opened up my eyes when he said Nadal would kill him with his new age uncle developed tactics, and he is right. We really do not know what is possible in the game of tennis as billions have not been invested in it's technical development, and understanding like other sports. The game changes, and I think by 2021 to 2030 we'll see a whole new generation of players who were developed in team athletic settings with an emphasis on transferring over cross sports training to tennis. The game has to get much more athletic, and it also needs more people who think outside the box and are not stuck in the Tilden paradigm. Just my opinion. Nothing personal.

Ok…so you cannot actually play the game. Plus you have never taught anyone how to play. You are questioning my methodology? Utter nonsense. You actually have no first hand experience in the game of tennis. Come to Ukraine? You come to Sweden? What are you getting at? More nonsense.

I am currently teaching over a hundred people how to play tennis. All ages…all levels. Men and women…boys and girls. Thursday night after work…I dismantled a very nice 41 year old player who is also training cross country skiing. He's in great shape and used to play at a high level here in the Swedish junior program. I sort of surprised myself how well I played…it's a natural high to be so good. He was all smiles when he came to the net to shake my hand after the old man gave him a nice little playing lesson…free of charge I might add. For the love of the game.

You are questioning my knowledge? Come on hot_dog…you and me one on one. Bring your racquet and one of the big suitcases full of money that you claim to have. Put your money where your big mouth is. You've got a lot of nerve…I'll give you that. But that is all. I bet you don't get a game from me. I'd love to listen to you ridicule me after the shellacking that I give you.

[don_budge]

Talking to yourself…again

I just have one question for you?

But, what are your results in the past ten years?

Zero.

Why don't you take your ideas to the USTA or Swedish Tennis Federation.

They'd ask:

"Who have you developed in the past ten years? We'd like to see your methodology in action."

You'd say:

"I teach kids to love the game, character and no kids have walked into my facility who want to be pro's."

And after that they'd say:

"LOL. Sure. We have experts, and its handled. Thanks."

Typical. You have a hypothetical conversation with yourself…quoting others and quoting me as if they actually said the words and then using this as proof to prove something that you actually have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Great stuff. I am sure that everyone just takes your word here about how great you are and how great a teacher, coach, mentor that you say you are.

I've actually had a coaching pass to the U. S. Open. I was in the locker room with Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Ivan Lendl and Pat Cash. But I suppose that doesn't count. hahahaha!

[hockeyscout]

You're not relevant. Look, I made an error here engaging a tennis fan who has no real idea how to coach the sport.

[stotty]

You want me to upload some more videos? What do you want to see? I'll post them,

I think this is a good idea. I have posted many of my students' strokes "warts and all" in the past and received great help from others.

I would like to see the little one's complete range of strokes: forehand, backhand, serve, volleys and overhead. If it's not too much trouble I would like her to play around 4 games with a credible opponent...maybe against an older child if she is very strong for her age.

Let me know if you are willing to post clips on the forum. I know you will be putting a lot on the line by doing this but it would be great if you could.

[10splayer]

This whole thread and the emphasis on body fly is really becoming laughably simplistic. It's application is, and can be performed, in certain situations. To make blanket statements like this IS the way to hit a ball, disregards the incredible variance (in a situation, balance, and momentum sense) that a player faces when actually playing the game.