The Myth of the Archer's Bow

[gzhpcu]

This is Revolutionary Tennis's take on the Archer's Bow:

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step12_2.html#backto

[GeoffWilliams]

The farther back you go, the deeper your knee bend, the greater the arch of the bow, the greater your external shoulder coil, the farther out you toss, the more your back arches, the deeper your frame drops, is all about storing a larger racquet path, more distance the frame travels, and who has a greater path than Raonic? He moves about 10' each serve. Too bad he was taught to string so low, as that destroys his ability to be consistent in longer rallies. They all know he will miss first most of the time due to his 42lb tension with lux m2 pro. A classic case of modern tech going too far.

Hey, Raonic, string higher! I'd say about 61/59lbs. I'd also switch to a frame that has a higher sweet spot more towards the top unlike the kblade paint job. I'd move him to the babolat pure drive 110 and use a vs touch 16g gut/x1 biphase 16g hybrid.

[jdcremin]

I think it's just a regular part of the throwing motion.

[GeoffWilliams]

The bow of the body is a myth. It does not create a deeper, longer frame path way. Ha, ha.

[lobndropshot]

Other the the fact the bow in that picture is on the throwing side of the body. Yes it totally supports your position...

[rstrecker]

Archer's Bow - a question of definition.

I started all this when John posted my question to him about weight transfer and the archer's bow a few weeks ago.

Reading all the great comments here, I think there is a bit of a definitional issue here about what the archer's bow means and I think some of the disagreement stems from this.

John seems to be defining this in terms of two items:

1) The first is whether the tossing arm forms part of the backward bending bow. I think the Isner photos are pretty conclusive on that point and there is plenty of other evidence. You do not need to bring your arm to full vertical and certainly not past vertical to have a great serve.

2) the second is whether great servers bend backwards from the waist as part of this forward weight shift. (John, is that fair?) This is a lot harder to tell. Looking at all the clips and the various still photos, I see very little of that. In the still photo looking down at Raonic, there appears to be at least some backbend but it does not look like a main element.

I think several of the other writers here are looking at whether the hips move forward so that the feet, the hips, and the head can be thought of forming an arch at the deepest part of the drop and whether the legs pushing the hips forward is an important part of the upward launch. On this point, I tend to side with the thinking that there is an arch as well shown in this particular clip of Sampras.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSAdSide2.mov

I have gone through this several times frame by frame. At the point the ball leaves his tossing hand, his head is between his hips a little closer to the back leg. (If he wore a 6 foot pony tail, it would be lying against his back on its way down to the ground.) At the deepest part of the drop, his hips have moved forward so far that his head is over his back foot and the imaginary pony tail would not touch his back at all. It's hard for me to say that this position is not an arch of sorts. Is his back bent from the waist? I'm not sure. Maybe a little but definitely not a lot.

If you you follow the drop and then the upward thrust frame by frame, his head never seems to move backward. As he is dropping, he turns his face upward and bends his knees while his weight is moving forward onto his front leg which means his hips are moving forward. Right near the bottom of the drop, it appears he pushes a little with his back leg and the head starts to move forward. He starts to straighten right after that. When I run the same serve at full speed, to my eyes the forward push of the back leg and the resulting forward hip and head movement look like the transition from the windup into the hitting phase.

Regards,

Ray

[John Yandell]

Good discussion of the issues. My point is that this curving happens to the extent it happens naturally. Players with great knee bend will have more. Like many points in coaching the concept of the archer's bow has been seized on as something that players should consciously create. I think that's a bad idea that has negative impacts. Once again the issue of cause and effect is a major problem. It's analogous to the issue of the "wrap" finish.http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/..._the_wrap.html

[GeoffWilliams]

Nothing in a world class serve happens naturally. Neither for a pitcher, or a quarterback. They make the most money, those who master the accurate throw/serve/pass. No one curves backwards naturally, nor forwards. Of course, the younger a player is taught great technique, the easier it is to master, but few do, and many master ground strokes more naturally than the serve. How many guys you see have great strokes and lousy serves? Even in the pros. Sampras goes from trophy to finishing his entire follow through in the time it takes to say: "One." The drop, the leg drive, the snap, the follow through finish all happen in that short time.


ONE




Form is not enough. Body speed/frame speed, don't just happen due to form, nor because of form, but are a separate skill. Muscle memory. All we have is memory. Every millisecond past is memory, and every past practice is memory, and every future movement is memory. Tough to get past a lot of slow memories and double your speed when your muscles have never done it. What most players need is muscle new memory. Muscle new speed. On top of that, hit the line while you're at it. NO wonder so few can do it. I just hit the fastest serve of my life, due to finally doing a better/faster/form, with a more powerful/newer frame, and gut/x1. Not too many 60 yr. olds learning to hit 120mph serves. NOr doubling their shoulder rotation speed. I first started studying Sampras in 1989. Not using video has held me back all this time from being able to do what he does "naturally."

If you can call 4,000 hr. practicing your serve natural.

[stotty]

That was a terrific post by rstrecker, thank you for that one. I tend to side with John and think any perceived bow is a consequence of what happens naturally. The problems come when a player "tries" to stick his hip out.

I tend to think of the bow as the whole package...with the tossing arm bowing as well.

I think differently to Geoff and think the best serves tend to be natural and often need little coaching. There have been too many good servers in the past back when we knew so little about biomechanics to refute this. The best servers I have ever coached I have had to do very little with technically. This tends to go for most shots, not just the serve.

[GeoffWilliams]

There's nothing natural about practicing your serve for an hour a day. No one ever reached world class with natural shots. Unless you claim that all the practice necessary for a "natural" shot to be accurate under match pressure is a "natural" price to pay.

[hockeyscout]

There's nothing natural about practicing your serve for an hour a day. No one ever reached world class with natural shots. Unless you claim that all the practice necessary for a "natural" shot to be accurate under match pressure is a "natural" price to pay.

Exactly, I like your posts Geoff. I add them to my two daughters home school each day.

[lobndropshot]

There's nothing natural about practicing your serve for an hour a day. No one ever reached world class with natural shots. Unless you claim that all the practice necessary for a "natural" shot to be accurate under match pressure is a "natural" price to pay.

Natural because it's the only way. It would be unnatural for a person to step on a court for the first time and serve like Sampras.

[GeoffWilliams]

Exactly, I like your posts Geoff. I add them to my two daughters home school each day.

Tell your daughters: Sampras serve is nothing but the best technique the world has ever seen, and at 6' tall he led the atp tour in aces two years, and held #1 for six years straight, mainly due to his serve and forehand, and the ability to be more accurate, and hit harder under greater pressure....


. The only strategy they need to evolve is how to create pop up shots from the opponent so they can then dictate the end of the point, and the serve is the #1 shot to do that, followed by the forehand.

I've seen and studied his serve since 1989 many slo mo thousands of times, that I've recorded starting with vhs tapes of the Philadelphia indoor where he beat Lendl who had been mentoring him at his Connecticut home.

What makes his serve: Start with this side view: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...ationSide2.mov

First watch just his knees in slo mo. See how they drive forwards, and then drive straight up?

He drives his leading shoulder way out, and scrunches his left lower back to allow a straight up/;down angle on shoulders, and a farther out front contact than any other pro, and then he stops his rear right shoulder, and lets the frame whip lash around straight down.

The platform stance allows for the left hip to bow out, while the pin point does not.

He keeps his chest facing the back fence until the leg drive begins, and does not drop from trophy until the drive begins.

The frame path way is crucial. Watch it. First it angles towards the left net post, and then goes all the way back under his elbow, and only then does it start forwards, straight up, and his shoulder stops, while pronating and he drives his hitting elbow straight up towards his head, and stops it.

His contact is three feet out in front of the base line.

The time it takes him to move from trophy, to finishing the follow through, is the time it takes to say: "One." Just try to move that fast, from the straight up trophy, to finishing the follow through in that time. One. 1. His frame is also 389 grams. A log by today's standards. He also hit more serve rpm than any other player other than Phillopousis. 2800 on firsts, and 4800 on seconds although the second was only about 12 mph slower at 108mph average.

[John Yandell]

I have always loved that Sampras clip!

[GeoffWilliams]

I hit with a regular guy who has seen thousands of my serves today, and within the first ten serves, I hit six aces. Was working on the speed of the one. Driving my hitting elbow up towards my head. Working on my pathetic leg drive/shoulder scrunch forwards. Working on cocking my frame wrist all the way backwards, and on contact, past towards the side fence. Used the new babolat pure drive 110 2015, strung with vs mains at 62lbs, and x1 biphase: top two down at 56lbs, next two down at 44lbs, next crosses down at 52lbs to the bottom. Not the right combo yet. Next experiment: Top two down at 58lbs, next four down at 48lbs, next four down at 54lbs, next six down at 50lbs, final three at 60lbs.