Peter Chen Serve

[stotty]

The right leg flying out to the right like is still a problem. It's going to take some training to stop it. Even if you take the correct prescribed advice of holding your right shoulder back (and even turning slightly more) and delaying opening until the leg drive, it may not necessarily override what the leg has been doing for a long time (the best laid plans of coaches and students often go astray!). To assist the process get a big cardboard box and place it to the right of you at around ideal point the right leg should land and finish. If you end up booting it off to the right, you've overdone it. It's a tool that may help the process.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/roger-federer/

[pvchen]

Here are the back and side views, and they play slow or real time as labeled (at least for me).

Don Budge and Stotty, I tried to get a rocking motion and synchronize my legs and toss a little better. On this day, I also tried to bend my knees as my tossing arm goes up. Also tried to keep my shoulders sideways more as my legs thrust. Curiosity, not sure if I’m achieving the right amount of shoulder turn or at the right time. Stotty, haven't tried the cardboard box drill yet-was hoping getting the stance into platform would help the right leg from swinging around. Sounds like there is consensus that my shoulders turn open to the net too early, but getting myself to cartwheel has been elusive.

Still pretty inconsistent and the ball tends to go more wide (from the ad court) than I intend. Any suggestions now? Thanks!

Serves back view slo-mo

http://youtu.be/_eQ8amhSIMY

Serves side view slo-mo

http://youtu.be/vxXVdQ2yyy8

Serves back view real time

http://youtu.be/i78DBJ4Iqys

Serves side view real time

http://youtu.be/1JRyPUETHaw

[don_budge]

The Peter Chen Serve…Preparation to go into the Forwards Swing…Round Two

Serves back view real time

http://youtu.be/i78DBJ4Iqys

Serves side view real time
http://youtu.be/1JRyPUETHaw

The videos all appear to be in real time…which is fine by me. Slo-mo tends to distort the serve since so much of the criteria is based in rhythm and speed.

Set Up Position...

Much improved. Feet alignment is a step in the right direction and it sets you up to take the next step in the right direction as I will mention in your footwork. Get the tip of your racquet to point at the top of the fence on the other side of the court. This will help to initiate your backswing.

Backswing...

The set up position sets up the backswing. By pointing your racquet at the top of the opposite fence you set yourself up to initiate your backswing with a dropping motion of the racquet. Let your racquet drop in "free fall" along the line of your feet in front of you and let your weight transfer happen at the same speed. Your weight transfer moves backwards with the speed of your racquet. In this manner you are synching the motion of the racquet head with the weight of your body to load everything to go forwards at the very end of your backswing. You want to have engagement between your racquet head and your body. As your racquet is falling past your back foot you have completed the weight transfer with your feet and you are starting to turn your shoulders while lifting the racquet. Allow the racquet to continue to swing with the momentum it gained from the free fall drop enhanced only by shoulder rotation and perhaps a gentle lifting motion with the racquet arm.

You see how your backswing starts with an initial kink…a staggered moment where the head loses its initial momentum. Right about the point where the hands separate and you go into you upwards tossing motion. You are very methodical at this point and with some practice it will smooth itself out. A little more momentum in the racquet head from a higher set up position should cure you of this "kink". Lose this kink and it looks pretty darn good and it will give your motion a free flowing feel to it. Remember…it is a back SWING. It is a free flowing backswing.

The Toss Motion...

By setting your hands farther forward you now have them in a position to coordinate the toss with your swing. Now you are tossing the ball into the court and strive to toss it even further to force yourself to stretch upwards and forwards into the ball. Good action with the downward motion of your tossing hand and it seems that you have gained more consistency in the height of your toss. You are on the right track in this regard. With your hands set forward in this set up position drop the ball and put the ball on the ground exactly where it bounced. Now take another ball and practice your toss…how far does it bounce from the ball on the ground? You want to throw the ball this far into the court or perhaps just a tad further. Much improved…by the way.

Footwork...

By aligning your feet in this position you are effectively aiming at your target. Now step to your target as you swing. Step towards your target as if you are going to begin walking directly at your target as you swing. The right foot should swing towards you target and you may lose your tendency to push the ball out to the right. Then practice serving and volleying. After you make contact take three steps and come to a split step at the service line. Even if you are not serving and volleying this is how aggressive your forwards and upwards motion should be in your swing.

With these small adjustments you should find yourself swinging more "freely" at that serve with a surprising amount of extra energy. I see the beginnings of some coordinated rhythm. Make these small adjustments and then we can talk about the swing itself. First things first.

[don_budge]

Betwixt and Between...

With these small adjustments you should find yourself swinging more "freely" at that serve with a surprising amount of extra energy. I see the beginnings of some coordinated rhythm. Make these small adjustments and then we can talk about the swing itself. First things first.

Betwixt and between the backswing and the forward swing is that point in the swing where it all set to go forwards…the backswing is completed and the forwards swing is ready to go.

Take a look at this…its another Peter. The Pete Sampras serve…

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/pete-sampras/

Click to frame #46 and see how far away from his right ear his hand is. Its an aspect of the Pete Sampras serve that nobody talks about…to paraphrase the resident Pete Sampras serve expert (GeoffWilliams) here on the forum. Pete has created what I refer to as "width" in his backswing. I borrow that term from golf speak. He has the great tilt in the shoulders that Rick Macci is emphazing in his video as well. Speaking of shoulders…look how far he has rotated.

At frame #46 his knees are at their most extreme position and he starts his forward motion with a driving of the legs which initiates his shoulder turn…the racquet dips to its low position behind him. But just take a look at that footwork as the right leg swings through as he begins his charge to the net. This to me is what I call Fundamentally Correct (FC) footwork.

But this is Pete Sampras and not Peter Chen. Take it incrementally and just get things started in the right direction and let's see how it evolves.

One other small detail…see how Sampras' racquet is tilted slightly upwards in his set up position which allows him to "drop" the racquet head to initiate his motion. Roger Federer does something quite differently as somehow he has abbreviated his set up position and initiates his swing from a much lower position with his racquet head.

[stotty]

Here are the back and side views, and they play slow or real time as labeled (at least for me).

Don Budge and Stotty, I tried to get a rocking motion and synchronize my legs and toss a little better. On this day, I also tried to bend my knees as my tossing arm goes up. Also tried to keep my shoulders sideways more as my legs thrust. Curiosity, not sure if I’m achieving the right amount of shoulder turn or at the right time. Stotty, haven't tried the cardboard box drill yet-was hoping getting the stance into platform would help the right leg from swinging around. Sounds like there is consensus that my shoulders turn open to the net too early, but getting myself to cartwheel has been elusive.

Still pretty inconsistent and the ball tends to go more wide (from the ad court) than I intend. Any suggestions now? Thanks!

Serves back view slo-mo

http://youtu.be/_eQ8amhSIMY

Serves side view slo-mo

http://youtu.be/vxXVdQ2yyy8

Serves back view real time

http://youtu.be/i78DBJ4Iqys

Serves side view real time
http://youtu.be/1JRyPUETHaw

The cardboard box would merely act as a reference point, but it is a handy tool.

I like very much what I see. I downloaded your most recent clips and your initial clips and played them side by side. The improvement is immense.

To have a stab at answering your question: The ball most likely sprays wide because you are still altering your grip to a forehand grip (or so it looks) around the trophy position. If you can get comfortable with using a continental grip throughout your entire motion it will give you far greater control in the long run. You will get better spin, too.

Your ball toss is still a tad too far to the right. If you freeze frame at your point of impact and compare the angle of your racket head to that of Federer's at the same point, you will find his racket head is pointed a bit more to his left. He achieves this by default by tossing the ball a little more centrally than you. I am wondering if this might help keep your right side in check slightly also...a handy by-product.

Other than these small observations I firmly echo all of what don_budge recommends. He is spot on about the arms. They aren't in synch and they absolutely need to be in your case. Some players let their arms "hang" as Federer does, others have a more raised start. The raised start is easier and usually the way I start most of my students off. For players who struggle to initiate the serve in a synchronised way, the raised start is often the best way to go. Just follow don_budge's post on the matter and see how it goes.

It's very encouraging to see the work you are putting in and rapid improvement you are making. Be patient. Even if you work on and correct all the bits and bobs, it will still take a good 5000 serves to bed down and become second nature.

As my father would often say to me..."nothing worthwhile in life ever comes easy, son".

[don_budge]

The Grip Switcheroo...

To have a stab at answering your question: The ball most likely sprays wide because you are still altering your grip to a forehand grip (or so it looks) around the trophy position.

As my father would often say to me..."nothing worthwhile in life ever comes easy, son".

I just caught that. Good eye. If you watch closely those fingers are fluttering on the grip at one point. Grips are ultimate…take it from klacr.

[pvchen]

What is a Continental Grip?

First, thanks you guys for being so generous with your attention and expertise.

After reading the posts from Don Budge and Stotty, I re-examined my grip. I had always thought I had a continental grip for my serve, but perhaps it is not. I think in tennisplayer terminology, the grip I had been using would be close to a 2 / 2, with the index finger on bevel two and the heel of the palm also on bevel two. Yesterday, I tried rotating the heel of the palm up to bevel 1. This grip feels very different, and I can barely hit the ball, but I'll stick with it if this is the way to a better serve.

Can you take a look at the photos of my initial grip, and the new grip? Is the initial grip a bad grip? Is the new grip a true continental?

Thanks,
Peter

[stotty]

Continental rules OK....

First, thanks you guys for being so generous with your attention and expertise.

After reading the posts from Don Budge and Stotty, I re-examined my grip. I had always thought I had a continental grip for my serve, but perhaps it is not. I think in tennisplayer terminology, the grip I had been using would be close to a 2 / 2, with the index finger on bevel two and the heel of the palm also on bevel two. Yesterday, I tried rotating the heel of the palm up to bevel 1. This grip feels very different, and I can barely hit the ball, but I'll stick with it if this is the way to a better serve.

Can you take a look at the photos of my initial grip, and the new grip? Is the initial grip a bad grip? Is the new grip a true continental?

Thanks,
Peter

The initial grip is not ideal. It's too eastern. The new grip is much better and about right. I always think the heel of the hand is the best reference point as everyones hands and fingers are different sizes and shapes. The heel of the hand is pretty much the same for all of us.

The only player I can think of who played with a grip erring towards an eastern forehand was Boris Becker. Relative to the high standard of world-class tennis, I always thought that grip let him down slightly. His second serve could go astray under pressure, and I am convinced he could have got a lot more work on his second serve with a more orthodox grip. He was also brutally strong and this maybe another reason why he was able to get away with that grip.

Some players also go to a slightly stronger continental grip for second serves. They find they can they can get more work and control over their second serves with a further fractional adjustment...and I am talking minuscule.

I think if you are finding the grip change too difficult, then you might make the adjustment in two stages. Don't go to full continental straight away, go half way instead. Once you mastered the half way stage, then go the whole hog. The important thing when you do this is to keep checking your grip so as to be sure you aren't subconsciously lapsing and adjusting the grip back to where it was before.

The critical thing with all such changes is that students are "honest with themselves". It's all too easy to settle for something less and convince yourself what you are doing is just fine. I get this all the time with students and their grips. So commit...go through the hoop...master the true continental...it will be worth it in the long run.

[don_budge]

K. I . S. S. -Keep It Simple Stupid (The Grip)

The critical thing with all such changes is that students are "honest with themselves". It's all too easy to settle for something less and convince yourself what you are doing is just fine. I get this all the time with students and their grips. So commit...go through the hoop...master the true continental...it will be worth it in the long run.

The service motion is every bit as complicated as a golf swing. In fact, in some respects it resembles an upside down golf swing because instead of the climax occurring at the bottom of the swing, it occurs at the top. What makes it even more complicated than the golf swing is the fact that we must toss the ball into position instead of teeing it up.

Every good golfer spends unlimited time evaluating, constantly retooling and practicing their swing. How much time and effort do we invest in perfect service motion technique and instruction? Whatever it is...I suggest it probably is not enough.

Faced with this daunting task of trying to teach a beginner student the service motion from scratch...the million dollar question is how do we arrive at the final product so that some other coach does not have to clean up the mess that we have created.

I have been thinking about this for some time now...for a couple of reasons. One is due to some of the questions that have been posted on this forum. Another is because, from my point of view there are some really bad service motions on the professional level. Lastly, and most importantly, I want to emphasis the service motion in teaching my students the game of tennis. I have attempted to come up with a model to steer that student in the proper direction towards the goal of the "perfect service motion". My model is a 4 step exercise that begins at the service line in Step 1, ala Wegner, and culminates on the baseline in Step 4...with Gonzales or Navarro.

Step 1...Oscar Wegner on the serve from scratch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rZ9dTikAXw&feature=related

From the Service Line...

1. First introduce the idea of aiming with a proper setup. The serve must go into the service court. Begin with throwing...perhaps at two targets in each of the courts. Aiming begins with the setup position and we begin with the setup here by lining up the feet to create a line at the end of the toes to the target and the racquet pointing at the target.

2. Hammer grip...the student must be introduced to the serve with the correct grip so we begin with something that at the very least...resembles continental. Start with the edge of the racquet towards the ball.

3. Both hands go up together and “open” the wrist (therefore the racquet) or some call it pronation...and with a short backswing push the ball towards the target. The longer you keep the edge towards the ball the more spin it will produce. Introduce both hands working together and spin.

4. A small step forwards into the court with the back foot...to introduce weight transfer.

Step 2 to follow...stay tuned.

Oscar Wegner with some simple grip instructions…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rZ9dTikAXw&feature=related

It's tough to be honest with ourselves…human nature being what it is. Very interesting observations about the Boris Becker serve. I think Jerzy Janowicz has the exact same sort of issues with his second serve. This serves to illustrate just how important the grip is…it defines how the hand fits to the racquet and consequently how all of the energy is transferred from the motion of the body through the conduit of the wrist and into the racquet face.

Here…pvchen. Take a look at the video here by Oscar Wegner and his "over-simplified" explanation of the grip and ensuing "pronation" of the wrist and forearm. The longer you keep the edge of the racquet at the ball the more spin you get. Relax…allow the grip to control the racquet face with minimal help from other sources. Try using these short abbreviated motions to get used to the grip…sort of fits into Stotty's idea of taking it in stages. Baby steps…and steady as she goes!

[pvchen]

Checking in

Hi Guys,
Here are my latest, rearview and sideview:

https://youtu.be/_QZPdBqpsqE

https://youtu.be/BsTz6LlbLNA

The tips I'm getting from this forum are really helpful. Thanks again! I feel like my rhythm is improving, as well as my weight transfer. My lateral step comes and goes. But I've developed that forward step into the court that Don Budge talked about.

I still have problems keeping my grip stable, and haven't felt comfortable with a real 2-1 continental yet.

Also, looking at the rearview, I'm not hitting the positions that Jeff Counts talked about, with the racquet aligned at the side of the torso, and the full internal shoulder rotation.

However, I've had the most success changing things related to synchronization of my toss, backswing and leg action rather than trying to change the way my hitting arm swings.

Any suggestions on what to do from here?

thanks,
Peter

[nickw]

The tips I'm getting from this forum are really helpful. Thanks again! I feel like my rhythm is improving, as well as my weight transfer. My lateral step comes and goes. But I've developed that forward step into the court that Don Budge talked about.

I still have problems keeping my grip stable, and haven't felt comfortable with a real 2-1 continental yet.

Also, looking at the rearview, I'm not hitting the positions that Jeff Counts talked about, with the racquet aligned at the side of the torso, and the full internal shoulder rotation.

However, I've had the most success changing things related to synchronization of my toss, backswing and leg action rather than trying to change the way my hitting arm swings.

Any suggestions on what to do from here?

thanks,
Peter

Hey Peter,

I just been getting up to speed with this thread. How great it is to see all the fantastic in-depth advice you've been getting from the forum.

You've definitely been working hard and making some improvements, and in an impressively short period of time.

First thing I would say is get that platform stance locked in! You had it pretty good in a previous clip, but the latest one you have the back foot on the move again. I think platform (no movement of either feet during the set-up) will help consistency, and definitely switching between the two will have the opposite effect.

Regards grip, and attaining those crucial racket positions highlighted by Jeff Counts, I would make it a priority to try and reach them or get closer to them. Those positions are pretty much universal when you study top class serves, and very common at lower levels too, they will give you more power.

My advice would be to work on bringing the elbow up and forward to allow that shoulder rotation and a better racket drop, and then to work on rotating the whole arm from the shoulder during the phase from racket drop to after contact. Shadow strokes is the best way, lots of them! Add some shoulder stretching exercises into your daily routine too. All this should enable you to find out firstly if your shoulder flexibility is enough to already get to these key positions, and secondly whether you can increase that shoulder flexibility with an exercise programme.

One of the vids in my series looks at the serve grip and making it work, might be useful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=000ZXMSj5t0

Good luck with it, hope you continue the improvement.

[don_budge]

For Starters…A Roger Federer comparison

Hi Guys,
Here are my latest, rearview and sideview:

https://youtu.be/_QZPdBqpsqE

https://youtu.be/BsTz6LlbLNA

The tips I'm getting from this forum are really helpful. Thanks again! I feel like my rhythm is improving, as well as my weight transfer. My lateral step comes and goes. But I've developed that forward step into the court that Don Budge talked about.

I still have problems keeping my grip stable, and haven't felt comfortable with a real 2-1 continental yet.

Also, looking at the rearview, I'm not hitting the positions that Jeff Counts talked about, with the racquet aligned at the side of the torso, and the full internal shoulder rotation.

However, I've had the most success changing things related to synchronization of my toss, backswing and leg action rather than trying to change the way my hitting arm swings.

Any suggestions on what to do from here?

thanks,
Peter

Great job! You are progressing in the logical order working your way up the biomechanical chain. Each step is dependent upon the step before it.

Your set up looks fine. The backswing looks so much better…just a little tentative perhaps. Let it flow…like the chai in your being.

So now you have worked your way up to the point where you are tempted to take that lateral pinpoint step with the back foot. Look at this pvchen…

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/roger-federer/

Count 48 clicks or so with you cursor from the beginning of the stroke. At frame #48 you will see how far Roger Federer has rotated his shoulders so that they are on the same line as his feet. Yours are on the way there but they are interrupted by that impulsive pinpoint step which essentially ends your rotation in the false instinct that somehow this faux step is going to enhance your power…or something.

Keep that foot down and just keep turning. It's going to feel a bit awkward for the first thousand or so swings but once you get the whole thing flowing…you are in the game. Once you get those shoulders lined up like Roger is in frame #48 you are going to take a quantum leap provided you get that backswing to flow yourself into position to do so. Turning the shoulders is a huge key to power in every sense of the word. Control being power. Control made up of the elements of speed, placement and spin. Not necessarily in that order either. Different combinations…like the service tactics of Federer.

The move with the back foot that I talk about is a fundamental step. I know that Roger is jumping off of the ground but you are not there yet.

Take a look at the 2015 Barclay's thread and on page 5 I have written quite extensively on a comparison between Roger's serve and that of Andy Murray. Murray serves with a pinpoint move of the feet too. In my point by point dissection I believe you might get some insight into your own serve. We learn by studying the mistakes of others as well as becoming aware of our own.

[stotty]

I tend to think along the same lines as previous posters. Try to stick with a platform stance throughout the serve until you can master it. At the moment don budge's use of the word "interrupted" is exactly right. That right leg interrupts the rhythm of the serve...splits it in two.

Were you to persevere with a lateral pinpoint style motion, then you would have to start sliding that back foot up earlier and in tango with the swing. At the moment you are in the trophy position before you start to slide the back leg up, which seems too late to me...and out of synch with the motion.

You will solve a lot of problems here by switching to a platform stance.

[bottle]

I'm rather blown away by Nick Wheatley's advice in one of his videos to move the elbow backward after having adduced it forward-- as part of the UAR (upper arm rotation) combined with triceptic extension.

That advice, while remaining a little different, seems to align with the advice of other video perpetrators to form a vertical wheel from key position of racket head by side of trunk.

You can't see the stuff that happens in a sixth of a second, Nick tells us, so you have to figure it out.

Confirmation of my theory, I'd say, that there is not only paralysis by analysis in tennis but paralysis by not enough analysis.

I also like it that Nick is so definite that triceptic extension, i.e., muscular extension of the arm is essential part of the UAR and arm extension mix.

Some tennis preceptors think that the arm extension is passive, that there have been experiments where satanic doctors have anesthetized the triceps with no discernible difference.

I have heard these strongly worded and conflicting arguments for so long that I am grateful for anyone laying out a firm position whether he is on wrong or right side of the subject.

It gives me courage to try the opposite method once again.

[lobndropshot]

Some tennis preceptors think that the arm extension is passive, that there have been experiments where satanic doctors have anesthetized the triceps with no discernible difference.

Satanic doctors...