How the Tennis Gods Move: Balance

[10splayer]

This isn't balance issue it is awareness. Doesn't read the ball it drops more than he would like and what you see is compensation, Just my opinion.

Yes, "balance", or "vertical stacking" has a lot more to do with "position" on the ball. (i.e lateral spacing and "contact point" to body relationship). These great players have a pretty good sense of what "balance" is, but some do a better job then others finding proper position on the ball.

Interesting discussion, because one of the things i work on immediately with students is an emphasis on keeping the shoulders up and over the hips. If they achieve that, the mind will start to fill in the blanks as to where they need to be in time and space to accommodate this structuring.

In Ryan's case, if you told him to hold his shoulder line and not lunge, the contact point would move closer to him laterally, and his contact point would move "back" a little. Probably take him bout two seconds to figure this out.

Just my 02 cents.

[dpremsagar]

Thoughts on the book

As somebody who believes that footwork is essential for getting into proper position to hit a ground stroke I've been scourging the internet along with this site for anything that would not just explain what good footwork is but teach me how to develop such footwork.

So when I saw McCain's article I immediately purchased his book and read it in less than 2 days. I already started practicing the drills. I've even charted out footwork progressions for the next few weeks. The book is very helpful.

There is one thing that McCain describes though that significantly differ's from Yandell's view. For a closed-stance backhand, McCain says that swinging the left leg around DURING the shot enhances power. I used to believe this, tried to incorporate this and my backhand was a mess. Then, Yandell published an article early last year about the closed stance backhand of the pros where he mentions that the left leg swinging around happens AFTER the completion of the racquet-swing and this is mostly for the sake of recovery. This has helped me quite a bit.

Would be very interested to hear McCain's thoughts on this.

[danmccain]

Closed Stance 2BH

Dear dpremsagar -
Thx for the comments & the question.

On the subject of the back foot on the closed stance, 2-handed backhand, you bring up the question of whether or not the back foot should ideally come around during the swing path or after the finish is complete - when players move laterally across the court to receive the shot.

The answer is - it depends. It depends on how you look at it, & it depends on the player. Debating on how we describe something is not what I plan to do with this response, but rather just offer my observations.

It depends 1st on the body type of the player. Very tall, thin (right-handed)
players can sync up their swing path & trunk rotation without bringing their back legs fully around to their left side. Think Delpo, Monfils or Berdych.
Often these taller players with more hourglass figures - with fundamentally sound backhands - fully rotate their shoulders & follow through with the racquet head completely without the left foot making it around to their left side, but they still typically BEGIN moving the back leg around as they drive through the ball.

This is also dependent on how far the ball is away from them & how much time they have on the shot, as shown here with Djokovic & Nadal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9_NfGAnnPk

This - as opposed to keeping the back leg glued to the ground & not coming around at all, shown in this unfortunate example of balance & momentum, as well as a major lack of trunk rotation shown by Sloane Stephens here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Lum8kJk6Q

The ideal use of momentum, facilitated by the back leg on the 2-hander, serves as a great facilitator of not just balance (since the legs remain under the center of gravity & thus facilitate good posture), but also trunk rotation. With that trunk rotation, a more ideal contact point is therefore made much more possible. On the backhand that Stephens hits in the video above, her lack of trunk rotation caused by the back left foot remaining relatively stationary - not coming around - results in a shot that contains arm-based power only, as opposed to her entire body producing power. Her contact point is also compromised, hitting too far to the side of her body & not enough in front.

Also, not only does the quality of this shot decrease, but so does the next one - because she can't recover immediately with her feet not squared off to the court. This reduces time to anticipate & get to the next shot.

Shorter, stockier players with fundamentally sound 2-handers like Agassi or Davydenko must move their back legs a little or a lot more in sync with the rotation of their shoulders & hips to ensure they can ideally rotate through the shot.

Here is some footage of Agassi, among others -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7POTvGMr9qg

In this video I posted recently (found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__FCeG9Y450), both Verdasco & Davydenko move their back legs around - Verdasco of course to his right side & Davydenko to his left side - as they follow through. They do this in order to enable the further rotation of their shoulders.

If we compare a range of players with fundamentally sound backhands in slow motion, we would find that some begin to bring the back leg around as they drive through the ball, some begin to bring their back leg around as they begin to follow through, & others after the follow through. Regardless, within the scope of situations that players are put in a situation with they move at least somewhat laterally across the court,we would find that they all bring their back legs around, as long as we were comparing apples to apples.


Thanks again for the discussion!

[stotty]

Great post...

Yes, "balance", or "vertical stacking" has a lot more to do with "position" on the ball. (i.e lateral spacing and "contact point" to body relationship).

These great players have a pretty good sense of what "balance" is, but some do a better job then others finding proper position on the ball.

Interesting discussion, because one of the things i work on immediately with students is an emphasis on keeping the shoulders up and over the hips. If they achieve that, the mind will start to fill in the blanks as to where they need to be in time and space to accommodate this structuring.

In Ryan's case, if you told him to hold his shoulder line and not lunge, the contact point would move closer to him laterally, and his contact point would move "back" a little. Probably take him bout two seconds to figure this out.

Just my 02 cents.

Great post, 10splayer. I think if we compare any player to Djokovic there is a good chance that player will come up short when it comes to positioning.

[danmccain]

Articles to come:

Mr. Yandell & I will soon offer a couple more articles related to this issue of balance, but I did want to respond to some of the comments thus far from licensed coach & 10splayer - both of which have offered some great insight.

In the book I discuss the BIOMEC Model, an acronym (for biomechanics) & coaching philosophy developed by the LTA years ago. These elements of Balance - Inertia - Opposite Forces - Momentum - Elastic Energy - & the Coordination (or Kinetic) Chain, all ideally work together & feed each other, & serve as movement principles that govern a player's ability execute sound swing shapes.

This philosophy shows how movement is intimately linked to swing technique by providing a framework - using human anatomy & the laws of the universe. Thus, the movement to a shot is every bit as much a part of the shot as, for example, the contact point - just like the momentum used after impact is just as much a part of the shot as the backswing.

Just as these principles movement work together, so do the elements of dynamic balance. As the book illustrates, these elements involve the following:

- Movement Preparation
- Posture
- Loading (which often requires small adjustment steps)
- Linear Momentum

Poor movement preparation - in the example I chose for the book & provided a YouTube link to in an earlier comment - from Harrison caused a cascade of imperfections in posture, an inability to easily make the needed little adjustment steps & subsequently an awkward loading into his stance, & abrupt, jerky momentum.

To maintain this "vertical stacking," or relatively upright upper body Posture, Harrison would have needed to take more little adjustment step in order to avoid lunging at the ball - but he couldn't. He didn't have time to do so due to his less than ideal movement preparation to this shot.

The movement on that particular backhand for Harrison reminds me of when I first learned to drive a car: oddly timed, jerky & all over the place.

So if you are working with a player that is inefficient at using anticipation to execute a split step, unit turn & crossover step that initiates moving to a ground stroke, then telling him to be balanced & "hold the line of his shoulders" when he receives the shot would be a tall order. That would be like tripping the ankles of your waitress in a restaurant & expecting her not to spill your food onto the floor.

On the other hand, Djokovic's sound movement preparation on the backhand that I chose to look at in the book & also in the previously mentioned YouTube video, predicts the framework of balance he shows during his swing path & momentum through. His movement prep contains clear anticipation that leads to a gravity step & fluid movement to the ball while turned / running, so he can glide to the shot quickly while capable of easily making small adjustment steps needed for him to load his legs with good posture & a comfortably wide athletic base.

[10splayer]

Guess I'm slow, because I still don't understand your point Dan. The article and much of what you say def passes the sniff test. However, it's hard for me to understand the remedy you're proposing.

My opinion is that balance and movement relate directly to contact point. I think we would all agree with that. The question is, how does one present this to a student. I would argue that emphasizing, proper spacing, contact point, while being vertically stacked is THE place to start....A person needs a point of reference as to what they are trying to achieve at that critical split second.

I also would argue that an emphasis on cross over steps (after the split) tends to be the most difficult footwork pattern to redirect momentum with. In fact, Fed is the "king" of movement, posture, etc, because he DOESNT cross over (but rather jabs, and leads with the foot closest to the ball) as much as most.

Interesting discussion.

[danmccain]

Preparation Predicts

It's pretty reasonable to say that good preparation would predict a higher likelihood of fluidly & balance during a swing path.

Split steps include a landing with the feet often with a specific foot sequence that enables an immediate unit turn - which results in a crossover step. Splits steps, preceded by good anticipation, often result in a staggered landing, with the foot furthest from the ball hitting the ground first to enable pushing off with the foot closest to the ball - which then forces a crossover step that initiates how players turn & run across the court to prepare.

This isn't just made up stuff; it comes from very reliable sources & research:

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...teral_Training

Since you think Fed doesn't use crossover steps - check this video out:

http://youtu.be/CteGZGXTWyA

This isn't tough to train either:

http://youtu.be/mL3Lw_lXc_4

[10splayer]

It's pretty reasonable to say that good preparation would predict a higher likelihood of fluidly & balance during a swing path.

Split steps include a landing with the feet often with a specific foot sequence that enables an immediate unit turn - which results in a crossover step. Splits steps, preceded by good anticipation, often result in a staggered landing, with the foot furthest from the ball hitting the ground first to enable pushing off with the foot closest to the ball - which then forces a crossover step that initiates how players turn & run across the court to prepare.

This isn't just made up stuff; it comes from very reliable sources & research:

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...teral_Training

Since you think Fed doesn't use crossover steps - check this video out:

http://youtu.be/CteGZGXTWyA

This isn't tough to train either:

http://youtu.be/mL3Lw_lXc_4

First off, I never said he doesn't use crossover steps. What I implied was he used them less frequently then most. And I believe there's a reason for this.

If the topic is keeping posture, redirecting momentum, and recovery, it would seem that a player would want to keep the center of gravity between the base of support, (jab, step out) if one can. Gravity steps, (or any variation) that cause the COG to fall outside the base of support are certainly faster, but require a reconciliation of posture, balance, etc. and are used only when necessary.

My point in regards to FEd, is that his "range" is better then most. He can use shuffle steps and jabs steps more frequently then others. With this ability, he is able to stay vertically stacked much more often and with greater ease.

I actually think gravity steps are over taught in JR DEV.

[don_budge]

Wonderful conversation...

It's a wonderful conversation and I don't know about you guys…I love it when 10splayer gets a little "testy". No kidding.

Guess I'm slow, because I still don't understand your point Dan. The article and much of what you say def passes the sniff test. However, it's hard for me to understand the remedy you're proposing.

My opinion is that balance and movement relate directly to contact point. I think we would all agree with that. The question is, how does one present this to a student. I would argue that emphasizing, proper spacing, contact point, while being vertically stacked is THE place to start....A person needs a point of reference as to what they are trying to achieve at that critical split second.

I also would argue that an emphasis on cross over steps (after the split) tends to be the most difficult footwork pattern to redirect momentum with. In fact, Fed is the "king" of movement, posture, etc, because he DOESNT cross over (but rather jabs, and leads with the foot closest to the ball) as much as most.

Interesting discussion.

It's pretty reasonable to say that good preparation would predict a higher likelihood of fluidly & balance during a swing path.

Split steps include a landing with the feet often with a specific foot sequence that enables an immediate unit turn - which results in a crossover step. Splits steps, preceded by good anticipation, often result in a staggered landing, with the foot furthest from the ball hitting the ground first to enable pushing off with the foot closest to the ball - which then forces a crossover step that initiates how players turn & run across the court to prepare.

This isn't just made up stuff; it comes from very reliable sources & research:

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...teral_Training

Since you think Fed doesn't use crossover steps - check this video out:

http://youtu.be/CteGZGXTWyA

This isn't tough to train either:

http://youtu.be/mL3Lw_lXc_4

First off, I never said he doesn't use crossover steps. What I implied was he used them less frequently then most. And I believe there's a reason for this.

If the topic is keeping posture, redirecting momentum, and recovery, it would seem that a player would want to keep the center of gravity between the base of support, (jab, step out) if one can. Gravity steps, (or any variation) that cause the COG to fall outside the base of support are certainly faster, but require a reconciliation of posture, balance, etc. and are used only when necessary.

My point in regards to FEd, is that his "range" is better then most. He can use shuffle steps and jabs steps more frequently then others. With this ability, he is able to stay vertically stacked much more often and with greater ease.

I actually think gravity steps are over taught in JR DEV.

The conversation set to music…and Roger.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/article/music-videos/

[tennis_chiro]

COG in the pelvic ring

It's a wonderful conversation and I don't know about you guys…I love it when 10splayer gets a little "testy". No kidding.


The conversation set to music…and Roger.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/article/music-videos/

It seems to me Roger stays vertically stacked the entire time through all four of these forehands. Another way to look at that is to say he keeps his Center of Gravity (COG - imagine the COG represented by a vertical line) within his pelvic ring (the circle formed by his pelvis). The only time the COG might fall out of his pelvic ring is when he is rcovering from the wide second forehand where he has been pulled off the court. This is brief at most and it is the only time he is forced to use a "drop step" (Is this what you mean by a "jab step"); that is, he is forced to step away from his immediate intended direction with his left foot (toward his right) to get his body leaning in the direction he needs to recover. Although his COG is clearly outside his feet (towards the center of the court), it is only very briefly outside of his pelvic ring.

In fact, he appears, particularly in this particular clip with the music, to float impervious to gravity. Notice the constant height of his head relative to the background; it does not go up or down except to adjust to actually hit the ball. He moves as if gravity is not driving him down; this is something all good players learn to do, albeit not as well as Roger; it enables them to better time and coordinate their contact with the ball. Bad enough the ball is going up and down; if the player is going up and down too, it's just too tough.

The lean where the COG gets outside of the pelvic ring is only used in the rare instance where the player is forced to recover from a wide position in a hurry and needs to get a very fast start using the falling weight of their body as an assist in their acceleration.

don

[don_budge]

The Grace… and the Balance of the Tennis Player

In fact, he appears, particularly in this particular clip with the music, to float impervious to gravity. Notice the constant height of his head relative to the background; it does not go up or down except to adjust to actually hit the ball. He moves as if gravity is not driving him down; this is something all good players learn to do, albeit not as well as Roger; it enables them to better time and coordinate their contact with the ball. Bad enough the ball is going up and down; if the player is going up and down too, it's just too tough.

don

This post is so exquisitely well played as well…well said tennis_chiro. He's floating imperviously. The other comments from the other fellows as well. Roger is simply dancing with the tennis ball…he is doing his own ballet. That's all…it is simple as that. It's a Tango…he makes it up as he goes along. As Al Pacino said about dancing the Tango in "Scent of a Woman"…"if you get tangled up…you just tango on". What a great line.

It's all about balance and energy. It's a dance. It's hard to describe in words but this conversation does a damn good job of it. Roger? Just watch him when he is playing a match…watch him when he is playing against Novak in the finals of the U. S. Open. He's a whirling dervish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swD-grd-JWU

There is no comparison really. Even on the backhand side. Roger's backhand is so much improved…since he changed the racquet head size. That size change gives him that incremental second that he so desperately needs to get balanced in order to perfectly deliver the racquet head to the ball. He doesn't miss a beat any more. Seldom anyways. Is it any wonder that his balance on the backhand side improved with the size of his racquet? Answer…no.

The backhand exchanges with Djokovic in this match were decidedly better than they have been in the past…it's testimony. Novak's movement is exceptional and what's not to like about his backhand…but it just may be his ability to hit off balance that tips the scale in his favor these days. His ability to surprise you when he is "out of position" is really the X-factor. His only real tangible advantage over Federer though is that he is younger…trust me.

I still prefer the footwork of Roger. When I just watch Djokovic and nothing else I don't get the inspirational sublime feeling that I do when I watch only Federer. Rod Laver said much the same thing.

[don_budge]

Dancing with Tennis Balls…Moving like a Tennis God

I got a chance to practice with my practice partner today and the video was somewhat fresh in my mind and found myself placing my shots at times according to this system.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/article/music-videos/

I also had this John Yandell video fresh in my mind today as I went out to practice. I was moving like a Tennis God…honest. Quite remarkable at 61 years old…really. Inspired by Roger…and my purple Head shoes with orange trim and orange laces. I was dancing with that ball…Tango baby!

[10splayer]

https://youtu.be/jAfZbxEAH5c

Good observation as to what Fed does, but not sure the reasons (he states) are as important as the ability to control center of mass.

What you guys think?

[bottle]

https://youtu.be/jAfZbxEAH5c

Good observation as to what Fed does, but not sure the reasons (he states) are as important as the ability to control center of mass.

What you guys think?

Would be a very provocative video just because it's about Roger's footwork (https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/roger-federer/). But it's doubly provocative in that this specific movement is not commonly taught.

The reasons that Jeff gives for doing this may or may not compel. But, does it feel great? My answer is, "yes."

[hockeyscout]

https://youtu.be/jAfZbxEAH5c

Good observation as to what Fed does, but not sure the reasons (he states) are as important as the ability to control center of mass.

What you guys think?

I think the only thing you know about tennis is what you find on youtube.

No goalie moves in the fashion he is teaching, and I know a few things about developing goaltender movement. None. Never. Ever. Goaltending is all about positioning in an arc, intersection angles, elliptical motion and forcing your opponents to sell out first. If you think left to right, you will get killed, as its all about control of depth, and moving in the correct path to block, stop and hold. You don't do that in tennis. The footwork is entirely different as well, I might add. I have trained goalie footwork. Its complex, no, I mean HIGH complex. Only 22 guys in the world can play that position in hockey, and soccer guys, well, those guys have a lot of courage and tremendous IQ's for the game.

Yikes, so stupid, but, its youtube. The shit for brains stuff posted these days that people are trying to pass for instruction is just sad.

And furthermore the guy is just pitiful when he shows his movement example.

Is it so tough to ask him to go to the gym, develop his legs and show how it is done properly? What a slack-ass effort. He is skipping, hoping, moving like a bunny and he goes left, right, left instead of right, left, right and loses himself a step because he has no clue to flow out, and as a result his rhythm will always be messed up, and his timing to the ball will always result in back foot setups and off balance errors. And, god, he brings his feet together, cardinal sin, and that disengaged his whole chain. I tell you what, I hate that skip. And, he cannot split step either to save his life. Thats a complex movement BTW, and no one focused on developing that the right way, so you can use it when you need it. So bad. And, guys wonder why tennis is such a tough game to play. Everything you don't want to see, he did.

Guaranteed his racket will fall apart.

Awful.

How in the hell are these guys even allowed on the court to teach kids when they clearly haven't been certified, or trained? I like these guys trying to teach centre of mass when they cannot even move themselves.

I like my daughters mama, some expert coach was talking about movement and she said, lets go run lateral, elliptical, sprint and movement drills. What ever you want to do, any coach here. They would not do it, and its because she is 6'3, zero fat to her and is a track coach who really knows how to control her centre of mass better than any of them as that is what she does for a living. And yes, as a sprinter she moves terrific laterally, and in all four directions, and has terrific change of pace, fast feet and stops, starts and is able to evade.

Lots of yapping, and not much in terms of performance and end results.

Talk, talk and talk, and no action.

Last post. Promise. This is so sad.