Interactive Forum October 2018: Naomi Osaka Forehand

[doctorhl]

Thanks. Will check it out!

[klacr]

Kyle: Have you ever experienced that “bowling ball” look and feel from your opponent’s second serve? I still think that hitting that old school, shallow, heavy kick to the server’s right, twist serve for clay(which requires that “look” or spin/speed ratio), is valid for Senior doubles to occasionally draw receiver forward. But I can’t find many who can do it or know of it to help me learn it.

Yes. I've experienced it. In fact, John did a great article in "Your Strokes" for Ingrid Neal's serve. Check it out. I experienced the before and after effects of the improvement.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[doctorhl]

thanks Jim.
Yeah, I remember reading that as well. When you see it in person its obvious the women are still crushing some huge shots, but as it goes fast through the air it looks as if its a ping pong ball whereas the men produce the power/spin combo which makes it look and feel like a bowling ball off your racquet.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Kyle: Have you ever experienced that “bowling ball” look and feel from your opponent’s second serve? I still think that hitting that old school, shallow, heavy kick to the server’s right, twist serve for clay(which requires that “look” or spin/speed ratio), is valid for Senior doubles to occasionally draw receiver forward. But I can’t find many who can do it or know of it to help me learn it.

[arturohernandez]

I am reviving this thread. We have a Mischa Zverev, Naomi Osaka and Ash Barty thread going that I think are all related. Mischa is hyper short made for attacking via approach shots. Osaka is built to hit winners from the baseline. But evidenced by her play on grass it is not very good at adjusting to inside the court. This makes her vulnerable to people who make her move inside the court and hit low balls. Madison Keys is another player with a huge backswing. Again, I feel that this is a liability in the long run. Mischa's may be too short but I feel like the Henin model may be better for women in the long run.

[arturohernandez]

hehe hseih just did exactly that at the miami open 2019

Yes! And Barty did it to Pliskova as well. I think we may finally get some variety in the women's game.

[nytennisaddict]

It is interesting to see how women hit different than men. Strength and power make a difference and it seems that women have to get the racket back farther in order to generate power. Or maybe they have a bit more time. In any case, I think this is a very nice forehand for the baseline big basher era. However, my guess is that it is not as amenable to playing inside the court and to the type of adaptability needed to handle an approach shot with all types of different balls.

So it seems that she is able to generate plenty of power but that it requires her larger frame to do so.

Obviously, it is a great weapon but I really wonder how it would hold up if she were pressed with either slice or with someone making her hit the ball somewhere else besides the baseline.

Problem is there aren't too many women who make players do that regularly these days.

hehe hseih just did exactly that at the miami open 2019

[klacr]

To follow up on Kyle's post, which I just read, per this 2017 article in NYT with data from the Australian Open the fastest average forehand speed was a tie between Madison Keys and Tomas Berdych. Li Na and Madison Keys had higher average backhand velocity than any of the ATP players. I believe John Y had written a long while back that the average RPMs are about 1k lower on the WTA, but that's from memory.

thanks Jim.
Yeah, I remember reading that as well. When you see it in person its obvious the women are still crushing some huge shots, but as it goes fast through the air it looks as if its a ping pong ball whereas the men produce the power/spin combo which makes it look and feel like a bowling ball off your racquet.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[jimlosaltos]

The lack of extension is surprising but she still produces some serious power.
Women will hit a naturally flatter ball and so the mph is not that far off of the men but the RPMs is where the gap is.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

To follow up on Kyle's post, which I just read, per this 2017 article in NYT with data from the Australian Open the fastest average forehand speed was a tie between Madison Keys and Tomas Berdych. Li Na and Madison Keys had higher average backhand velocity than any of the ATP players. I believe John Y had written a long while back that the average RPMs are about 1k lower on the WTA, but that's from memory.

[stotty]

hes such a great athlete he can carry it off.

To me, when I see this kind of thing in a very good player like Monfils, I just can't help thinking if his forehand might not have been even better with better extension.

When I watch Serena play, I sometimes wonder - more than with any other player - how amazing she might have been with male technique. She has the strength and ability to have adopted those technical advantages had she been taught them at a young age. Well, it's an interesting thought, isn't it?

[alexander30]

Monfils is another one with less than ideal extension, so it happens in the men's game too on occasion. While it doesn't seem to handicap some players in any way whatsoever you just wonder if their forehands might have been a tad better with better extension.

The trouble with coaching is someone always comes along and proves a so-called 'commonality' to not be an imperative we perhaps thought.

hes such a great athlete he can carry it off.

[alexander30]

Donald Young is another who has/had way too much windshield wiper and not enough extension. He owned the juniors but when he joined the pros at a young age, his balls weren't heavy enough and couldn't keep up. He has hung around for a long time and currently has a ranking of 264. Tough way to make a living.

young used to take racket back behind him too much almost like a wta fhand and he struggled with extension and hitting that heavy ball needed on the mens tour.unbelievbly bad considering the level he played at.such a technical error..

[John Yandell]

Agreed very much.

[stotty]

These days, when working with girls, I tend to work on the premise of reducing their backswings. I often won't get a true ATP forehand out of them, or anything close, but, generally, girls are more consistent once their backswing is reduced, preferably to the point where it stays on the hitting side of the body.

Aside from the topspin element, WTA forehands are far less consistent than ATP forehands. Reducing backswings at least goes some way to resolving that issue.

[alexander30]

taking the racket behind the shoulder line i guess makes the women feel it gives them more power but hard to be consistent as the swing is more circular so less spin and extension will be a problem Atp forehand has to be the way to go not the wta.,Also maintaining the crosscourt trade is more difficult.

[jmtennis]

Agree could have a little more extension on follow through and keep her backswing on the hitting side. she takes her racquet behind her back what can we say she won the open