Two-handed Backhand Stances & One-handed Slice

[stotty]

Nice drills. We use the same drills and others like them over here in the UK. The Spanish are very keen on hand fed basket drills like the one in the clip.

Using the right movement patterns and stances are well worth installing in players who play a lot and have regular coaching. I think for a lot of coaches who don't have an Academy set up like Emilio and only see our players once a week, it's more difficult.

[lovati4]

In Spain tennis coaches often use variations of a classical exercise known as 4 Vs. This exercise was created by Pato Alvarez and then became one of the basic exercises in many Spanish tennis academies.
Look at Emilio Sanchez teaching kids how to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAJFdzPprEQ

I say that because of stances this naturally leads to on a backhand side. When for example a player moves (shuffles) along backhand V forward to the ball he (she) naturally hits it in a slightly closed (or a neutral) stance. Moving back (receiving a ball) he (she) chooses semi open stance.
I like this exercise a lot. This movement pattern helps players keep great balance and lets then naturally find good position for the outside foot.
Spanish players also learn to move (flow) forward and back, receiving a ball in the semi open stance (on the outside foot). They practice like that on the forehand and backhand side with a one-handed or two-handed backhand. In many videos Emilio Sanchez explained philosophy of this exercise and how to do it with players of different age and level of play.

[stotty]

Great work! I was often confused into thinking that the front foot was important on all strokes. But lately the importance of the back foot has come into my mind. This shows us how important it is to track the ball with the back foot.

I have my daughter also hit one handed backhands with an open stance. It helps her with timing and then eventually she will simply adjust and take the step after she has aligned herself to the ball.

Be a little careful in teaching the open stance to a one-handed player. It's a more difficult than the two-handed version. I have a one-handed backhand and have never bothered with an open stance as it was unnecessary at my level of play. Sometimes on return of serve I did it, but only rarely. Stepping in with a one-hander is way easier. The two-hander is a different kettle of fish.

The pro's do it of course but by and large they seem to prefer closing the stance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J53OSJVpziw

[arturohernandez]

Great work! I was often confused into thinking that the front foot was important on all strokes. But lately the importance of the back foot has come into my mind. This shows us how important it is to track the ball with the back foot.

I have my daughter also hit one handed backhands with an open stance. It helps her with timing and then eventually she will simply adjust and take the step after she has aligned herself to the ball.

[stotty]

a. I think Owen did very well especially for the first time (in all attempts). He decelerated well into the open stance and then took a step. His landing was quite balanced and he made good effort to get back to the middle of the baseline fast.
b. On the other hand most of the time he would take a step close to parallel to the baseline. It would be much better to step on a diagonal, 45° or even more. Even with a front foot in the air at point of contact the stance is too closed. It means that hips and even shoulders cannot rotate easily. Without fluid shoulder rotation there is no good extension forward with arms and racquet. This way a player can probably only loop the ball to the other side.
The problem is that even for this kid with good deceleration it might be difficult to take a flying step on a diagonal, inertia makes him move along the baseline. Only a diagonal step would make this motion work.
c. His timing was rather good, may be due to the ability to decelerate smoothly before the step. As we discussed good timing is a very important aspect of this motion. A couple of times Owen had to bend a little, hitting the ball or just after that.
d. Owen's balance at landing was very good and he made good effort to get back to the middle of the baseline in time. But I think that might not be enough in a match play against a good opponent. That is related of the difficulty of landing especially with both hands on the racquet after the big step away from the middle of the baseline.
I hope you do not mind my comments. Owen is a talented kid.

Of course I don't mind your comments! All constructive and well meaning comments are welcome. Yesterday we just practised the move as per Pat's video. In Pat's video the girl cuts the ball off at a diagonal much like you say, and, yes, it's highly desirable to do so. Some of my feeds didn't permit it because they were fed deep and he was under pressure to get to there. He often didn't have time to cut the ball off at a diagonal. I still think the move is effective (sometimes you don't have a choice) even though recovery is impaired. I think with all stances it's when to use which one that becomes important.

But it's practice the move first, then perfect when to to do and off what ball later....maybe even next week.

[lovati4]

a. I think Owen did very well especially for the first time (in all attempts). He decelerated well into the open stance and then took a step. His landing was quite balanced and he made good effort to get back to the middle of the baseline fast.
b. On the other hand most of the time he would take a step close to parallel to the baseline. It would be much better to step on a diagonal, 45° or even more. Even with a front foot in the air at point of contact the stance is too closed. It means that hips and even shoulders cannot rotate easily. Without fluid shoulder rotation there is no good extension forward with arms and racquet. This way a player can probably only loop the ball to the other side.
The problem is that even for this kid with good deceleration it might be difficult to take a flying step on a diagonal, inertia makes him move along the baseline. Only a diagonal step would make this motion work.
c. His timing was rather good, may be due to the ability to decelerate smoothly before the step. As we discussed good timing is a very important aspect of this motion. A couple of times Owen had to bend a little, hitting the ball or just after that.
d. Owen's balance at landing was very good and he made good effort to get back to the middle of the baseline in time. But I think that might not be enough in a match play against a good opponent. That is related of the difficulty of landing especially with both hands on the racquet after the big step away from the middle of the baseline.
I hope you do not mind my comments. Owen is a talented kid.
In general I remember just few times when men would choose this motion during the point. On the other hand as High speed archives show Novak Djokovic uses this motion (taking a step (sometimes a relatively small one) on a diagonal, hitting the ball with his front foot in the air, making a kick with his back foot) 60-70% of the time when returning a serve with a backhand. Anything Novak does on return of serve is worth looking at because he returns better than anyone else.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...4%20250fps.mp4
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...r%20500fps.mp4
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...1%20120fps.mp4

[John Yandell]

The set up on the outside foot is great. That allows open stance and everything else.

[stotty]

lovati4,

I showed Pat's video to Owen and asked him to do the same as the girl. It's a good way to cut to the chase if kids can learn things by watching, many can. Anyway, here are his first attempts. One clip is slomo, the other normal speed.

https://youtu.be/I-_nkr6kfOQ

https://youtu.be/3oouxRcQxsU

The more I coach Owen and others like him, the more I think mastering the open stance is the key to everything. Once the open stance is learnt and learnt well, all the the stances and footwork patterns will come really easily. And, remember, Owen is just talented local player who plays two or three times a week.

That said...

Novak can play great backhands off every stance going, but, when rallying, he will still work hard to get into a closed stance if he can. He must find it the most stable stance for hitting and transferring weight.. I would love to have the opportunity to ask him.

I will check out your post #30 with interest tomorrow.

[lovati4]

We can take a look at Novak Djokovic forehand return with a similar motion. https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...t%20250fps.mp4
This movement seems much easier to me than on a backhand side. Novak takes a step hitting the ball before landing on his front foot. It may be easier because of the left arm. It is free and a player can use his left arm to keep balance while taking a step and hitting the ball with his front foot still in the air.

[stotty]

I also like it. Novak and the girl execute their backhands very well landing with good balance. Since a player can not rely on the stationary stance they need very good timing. I think it takes a lot of practice. It might be the most complicated movement on the backhand side.

It might not be that difficult. I may have Owen have a go at it later today. Once kids have mastered the semi open stance, moving to a more advanced method still may not be as difficult as it seems. I will be inclined to show Owen a clip of Novak or the girl and say, "copy that". He might be able to do it from just watching them. Some kids are great like that.

The question I ask myself with all the kids I teach is: are they going to need it, need it for the level of tennis they are likely to achieve?

[lovati4]

I also like it. Novak and the girl execute their backhands very well landing with good balance. Since a player can not rely on the stationary stance they need very good timing. I think it takes a lot of practice. It might be the most complicated movement on the backhand side.

[stotty]

Nice video of Pat's. To me scissoring or whatever you want to call it is just an device to keep balance after the open stance strike. It also looks like a great way to transfer weight and momentum. Looks terrific to me when I see kids do it. It takes good split second timing to get the move right.

I classify 'stance' as the way the feet are set up 'on the ground' before executing the shot. Scissoring is more what is happening in mid-air and I am not sure that qualifies as a stance. I am not that big on terming everything to the letter. What happens happens and so long as I can see it and understand it, I feel no need to name it specifically.

[lovati4]

Stotty, may be you are right. In some of Novak video clips he mostly jumps up crisscrossing his legs at the same time. But in many videos Novak makes a step transferring his weight on a diagonal like the girl in Pat Dougherty's video. That is what I was looking at. It is possible to see a distinction between these two movements.

[lovati4]

I would like to share the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igjlOjioJNc
In the video Pat Dougherty discusses many topics we have been discussing in Two-handed backhand stances in a tennis match (Djokovic vs Khachanov, 2018) and in this forum.
When I look at the girl taking a step and hitting the ball with her front foot in the air I see why she is gently kicking her left foot back at the same time (from 2:50). It is clearly the matter of balance.
Can we call it a stance? According to Marian-Webster stance is "the position of both body and feet from which an athlete starts or operates". In our case the player places her feet in an open stance, takes a step and finally lands in a closed stance. The girl starts in an open (semi open) stance but it is not an open stance backhand. Then she takes a step but her front foot has not landed yet. This is not a closed stance either.
I would call it a stance (position or set up) though with two distinctive features: a) one foot is off the ground (I am sure we can find such stances in other sports), b) an athlete can keep this stance only for short period of time. She has to execute her upper body motion in this time interval.
At the same time this definition might seem a bit shaky to some people. Pat Dougherty called it a load and lunge transfer step.

[stotty]

Thank you for the reply.
Actually there is one more stance we have not talk about yet. I noticed than Novak Djokovic prefers it when returning serves with a backhand. In this stance a player steps across the body hitting the ball before landing on the front foot - with his front foot in the air. I think It is not just a variation of a closed stance. It is one of the main stances.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...4%20250fps.mp4
I notice that I play like that naturally (while returning a serve) on my forehand side - stepping across and hitting the ball with my front foot in the air. But on the backhand side it does not come naturally to me.
So I decided to check high speed archive on Tennispayer to see how often Novak Djokovic returns a serve in this stance.
Results are presented in Table 1.

Table 1 Novak Djokovic's returns of serve with a backhand

First serve returns
	1	2
Number of times	8	13
%	62	100
Second serve returns
	1	2
Number of times	15	22
%	68	100

where,
1 - closed stance with a front foot in the air
2 - total number of backhand returns of serve

Closer look at the video shows that his feet movement is even more interesting. He pivots on his left foot opening his left hip (super little move), then he might take 1-2 more adjustment steps if he has time and then he steps with his right foot across hitting the ball before landing on the front foot. This step may be quite small. This is what I expected.
But this is not all. Novak seems to kick back with his left leg at the same time. Actually it looks funny. It might help Novak keep balance, one of the key elements of a high-quality stroke.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...1%20120fps.mp4
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...r%20500fps.mp4
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...4%20250fps.mp4

Isn't this scissoring? Like in the Kerry Mitchell article? The most explosive type of alignment? Anything Novak does on return of serve is worth looking at because he returns better than anyone else. Certainly the clips you sourced are very revealing. I think scissoring is all about getting maximum power and control then regaining balance.

I think Roger does the same thing with his one-hander in given situations, so it's not exclusive to the two-handed brigade.

My youngest son scissors as a fun shot when he plays socially with friends.