role of hip snap in the serve?

[John Yandell]

Can't see much! I need higher fps with a shutter!

[don_budge]

will do... just waiting for some warm & sunny days, so i can film at a high resolution... at slow mo as well. the lighting at indoor courts by me are often less than 150lumens which is terrible for recording the fine details of something like the serve.

here's an old vid (match lesson) from last summer... where i only know how to topspin and kickers. for the last 9 mos or so, i've been working hard to hit flat, slice/topslice... particularly deuce wide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuRWQPh-4ps&list=PLf_8vBE70YVodKeKiCY0O3fShHl_Bw9xV&index=2&t=0s

since that lesson, i've also revamped my 2hbh, and fh, and lost weight :P

Super video...you've got a tiger by the tail there. How long had you been playing tennis to this point when the video was made?

[nytennisaddict]

NY,
Thought you were going to send me some video of that serve of yours!

will do... just waiting for some warm & sunny days, so i can film at a high resolution... at slow mo as well. the lighting at indoor courts by me are often less than 150lumens which is terrible for recording the fine details of something like the serve.

here's an old vid (match lesson) from last summer... where i only know how to topspin and kickers. for the last 9 mos or so, i've been working hard to hit flat, slice/topslice... particularly deuce wide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuRWQPh-4ps&list=PLf_8vBE70YVodKeKiCY0O3fShHl_Bw9xV&index=2&t=0s

since that lesson, i've also revamped my 2hbh, and fh, and lost weight :P

[nytennisaddict]

Trust me we understand. My daughter's serve has changed many times. As well as her forehand and backhand. There were times were her forehand was as perfect as you can ask for but very slowly old habits creep in and before you know it it goes to sh*t again. So its back to the drawing board. We have had to rebuild her strokes many times. Some of this had to do with poor coaching when she was younger. We had to undo certain things. Luckily even though it can be very frustrating, she loves practicing. She was certified USTPA at 19 and teaches part time. One of the local high school coaches brings his entire team to her because he says she's the only one who knows what she is doing. LOL.

hehe i teach too, and IMO not being athletically gifted, and having made all the mistakes... is what makes me a decent teacher :P

She has a no nonsense teaching approach focusing on simple fundamentals and she doesn't let her students get away with anything some of the other coaches who sit by and say nothing as they watch their student hit 50 late balls in a row. It's like huh? Why aren't you teaching your student to get his/her racket back? That's your job! I get frustrated as well seeing these kids putting in the time and effort and the parents paying for it and receiving sh*tty coaching.

i get that.... but i also understand where they are coming from.
i've had quite a few students that weren't willing to put in the work, or make changes, or had their own way of doing things. in the end i chose to stop working with them, because (a) this is not my full time job/business (b) no point continuing to teach if they insist on doing it wrong
on the flip side, full time coaches, that are struggling to fill their 40h or whatever to make a living can't afford to take that approach... some are afraid to correct their wealthy clients, some are afraid to make their client "worse" even if in the long run the correction will make them better, etc...
i'm also in the fitness industry, and there alot of adults out there, that pay to be coddled and get attaboys. they don't want to listen to the advice (that they supposedly payed for). and they are also too weak to hear the blunt truth (want to lose weight? stop stuffing yourself like you're preparing to be next thanksgiving's main course).
anywho, i typically just fire those clients

[Error]

I remember when we would go out to practice serve, hundreds of serves and my daughter would be so excited she reached the back fence in one bounce which happened maybe once or twice a month. Literally thousands of serves and then one that hit the fence.. and thousands more and one or two would bounce to the fence.. and thousands more and now maybe 5% would hit the fence in one bounce.. Its happens so slowly, MUCH slower than we imagine it would. But those little things show you that you're learning, you're improving, its not a waste of time and effort.

[John Yandell]

NY,
Thought you were going to send me some video of that serve of yours!

[Error]

interesting... now i gotta find his name!
i follow all the short folks... chang, rochus, schwartzman, cibulkova, henin, etc..
according to: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...-serve.307940/ rochus supposedly hit over 130, and he's about my height!

but you're right... the location and consistency are more important that squeezing every mph out of my little frame.

I saw this guy, play at the US OPEN qualifiers. He had a huge serve and he's like 5'7". He won vs who I think was the number one seed.. I could be wrong about that.

[Error]

.... part of what hurts me, is breaking old bad habits

Trust me we understand. My daughter's serve has changed many times. As well as her forehand and backhand. There were times were her forehand was as perfect as you can ask for but very slowly old habits creep in and before you know it it goes to sh*t again. So its back to the drawing board. We have had to rebuild her strokes many times. Some of this had to do with poor coaching when she was younger. We had to undo certain things. Luckily even though it can be very frustrating, she loves practicing. She was certified USTPA at 19 and teaches part time. One of the local high school coaches brings his entire team to her because he says she's the only one who knows what she is doing. LOL.

She has a no nonsense teaching approach focusing on simple fundamentals and she doesn't let her students get away with anything some of the other coaches who sit by and say nothing as they watch their student hit 50 late balls in a row. It's like huh? Why aren't you teaching your student to get his/her racket back? That's your job! I get frustrated as well seeing these kids putting in the time and effort and the parents paying for it and receiving sh*tty coaching.

[nytennisaddict]

There is a 5' 7" ATP player from Asia... or maybe he's not from Asia maybe he's just Asian.. I forget his name, He average serve in one tournament was 96 mph. His top was like 105 or 110. You might think that other players would easily tee off on those serves but that really inst the case. His serve is fast enough and with good placement to put the opponent on the defensive. At your height you must be doing something right if you are hitting in the 90s and getting it in consistently. Most recreational players I see, and I see a lot of them, dont come close to that speed and get them in the box.

It probably took my daughter 3 years of practice to add 20 mph to her serve. I have some video of her serve years ago and now but its part of a longer video and I cant figure out how to isolate just a small clip and just pull it to show you. We had a radar gun and her average first serve was 78mph.This was when she was about 16 or 17. Shes now 20. I'll go into a little more detail on how she did it...

interesting... now i gotta find his name!
i follow all the short folks... chang, rochus, schwartzman, cibulkova, henin, etc..
according to: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...-serve.307940/ rochus supposedly hit over 130, and he's about my height!

but you're right... the location and consistency are more important that squeezing every mph out of my little frame.

[nytennisaddict]

wow, i really appreciate the detailed response!

I definitely didn't make the throwing analogy which I think is another horrible way to approach the serve. You can watch Serena throwing a baseball on you-tube and tell me if there is any correlation between the ability to throw and the ability to serve. Serena cant throw a ball if her life depended on it. What more proof do we need.? But I came to that conclusion a long time ago as I dont feel even remotely like I'm throwing a ball when I serve.

my mental model has always been that there are elements of throwing that overlap, but not completely the same, in particular throwing a football... in partciulra:
* sync'ing core turn with the arm
* hand turning out to get the spiral (ie. going from on edge to open face)
* keeping the tossing arm, shoulder throwing arm, in a line
to get the racquet drop motion, i learned/teach to have folks throw an old racquet repeatedly...

As far as methodology I keep harping on fundamentals. If your standing is a relaxed position somewhat facing the side of the court and have been taught the correct continental grip,we work on toss. The toss is crucial and I still work on mine and I'm still surprised at how much time I've spent on it and I still get it wrong.. The difference is I've developed my serve enough that I can still make a bad toss work, to a degree at least. But that ball being in the correct place is like a billion times more important than anything else.

agreed... the toss for me has been the #1 issue IMO for my serve. when i can get my toss in my spot consistently, good things happen... but more often than not, a toss that is just a few inches off means i'm ad-libbing my service motion to compensate for non-ideal toss.

Since you're already in the correct grip there is no need to mention bringing the racket up on edge because it happens due to the continental grip. Next we work on contact point, Not worrying about how or where you hit the ball, but the WHEN and that is before the ball drops too much. What is to much? If contact is made with a bent arm you're letting it drop to much.(we're not talking about a kick serve right now).

yeah, when i teach beginners the serve, and do the, hold the ball on a rope from a stick thing (hold a static ball at their contact), i find that beginners will often look pretty good. but as soon as you introduce the toss, everything goes out the window because the timing (when) of the contact is off... so they start taking shortcuts or whatever to make up for their lack of timing.

So we have the stance, the toss, and the contact point. Those are the basic fundamentals. If you cant hit a good serve with just those things in mind than you cant hit a good serve..Racket drop, bending, stretching, hip in or out, turning the torso,jumping, leg drive.. Most of that stuff develops on its own as you practice and progress. Obviously at some point you begin to experiment a little and micro manage a little more if need be. The trick is to practice the fundamentals until they have burned their way into your brain so you dont need to think about them and as I have said already this is the part that the majority of people underestimate. Young people get it much quicker but the good ones have a major commitment to practice. For us it takes an incredible amount of time to develop muscle memory which is really just brain memory.

agreed

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying the fundamentals are simple to understand. Learning isn't easy. Your brain works overtime and you constantly have to reset, clear your brain and try again. Chances are ( in tennis) if you dont understand the things being discussed they are almost certainly not worth thinking about.. Stance, toss and contact are easy to understand. The problem is players who dont really like the grind and repetitiveness of this type of practice look for an easy way out... that's where all of the peripheral stuff comes in.

agreed... part of what hurts me, is breaking old bad habits

Good question and I dont remember. It must not have been a very significant decision or I would recall. She uses a pinpoint and I use a platform. It's like a one handed backhand vs two handed. Which ever the player feels is more natural. I have a one hander, she has a two hander.

... I would suggest that the stance is almost irrelevant and personally I wouldn't switch unless you try a few and it feels more natural for you but a switch isn't going to improve a serve that is fundamentally undeveloped.. not that yours is but you're asking.

i wonder if the difference between pinpoint and platform was something related to the rule change of having to keep a foot on the ground. ie. old timers kept the front foot on the ground, then they adapted the "leave the ground version" that turn into a "pinpoint style" which generations copied... and lastly maybe the platform style was just the next evolution unencumbered by history or copying old school pros...

[nytennisaddict]

I think this Pat style(with the hip flexor stretch as Pat calls it) or limbo type stretch serve like Stan has(and I think Feliciano Lopez also) is way easier with more of a pinpoint type stance. Both Stan and Lopez kind of step up with their back foot as they toss the ball.

that's what i'm thinking too.

[Error]

so what was your methodology for teaching your daughter? did you just have her throw a football for a while, and say, "just do that with a racquet now"?
or did you just demo, and she imitated?
what are they things you point out, correct, tweak, etc...?

I definitely didn't make the throwing analogy which I think is another horrible way to approach the serve. You can watch Serena throwing a baseball on you-tube and tell me if there is any correlation between the ability to throw and the ability to serve. Serena cant throw a ball if her life depended on it. What more proof do we need.? But I came to that conclusion a long time ago as I dont feel even remotely like I'm throwing a ball when I serve.

As far as methodology I keep harping on fundamentals. If your standing is a relaxed position somewhat facing the side of the court and have been taught the correct continental grip,we work on toss. The toss is crucial and I still work on mine and I'm still surprised at how much time I've spent on it and I still get it wrong.. The difference is I've developed my serve enough that I can still make a bad toss work, to a degree at least. But that ball being in the correct place is like a billion times more important than anything else.

Since you're already in the correct grip there is no need to mention bringing the racket up on edge because it happens due to the continental grip. Next we work on contact point, Not worrying about how or where you hit the ball, but the WHEN and that is before the ball drops too much. What is to much? If contact is made with a bent arm you're letting it drop to much.(we're not talking about a kick serve right now).

So we have the stance, the toss, and the contact point. Those are the basic fundamentals. If you cant hit a good serve with just those things in mind than you cant hit a good serve..Racket drop, bending, stretching, hip in or out, turning the torso,jumping, leg drive.. Most of that stuff develops on its own as you practice and progress. Obviously at some point you begin to experiment a little and micro manage a little more if need be. The trick is to practice the fundamentals until they have burned their way into your brain so you dont need to think about them and as I have said already this is the part that the majority of people underestimate. Young people get it much quicker but the good ones have a major commitment to practice. For us it takes an incredible amount of time to develop muscle memory which is really just brain memory.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying the fundamentals are simple to understand. Learning isn't easy. Your brain works overtime and you constantly have to reset, clear your brain and try again. Chances are ( in tennis) if you dont understand the things being discussed they are almost certainly not worth thinking about.. Stance, toss and contact are easy to understand. The problem is players who dont really like the grind and repetitiveness of this type of practice look for an easy way out... that's where all of the peripheral stuff comes in.

how did she choose pinpoint vs. platform? even this question is a personal struggle for me

Good question and I dont remember. It must not have been a very significant decision or I would recall. She uses a pinpoint and I use a platform. It's like a one handed backhand vs two handed. Which ever the player feels is more natural. I have a one hander, she has a two hander.


...

since i'm willing to spend the time, should i switch? according to salzy he prefers platform and made a switch,... every fed analysis says platform. henin switched to platform.... yet alot of big servers still serve pinpoint... not that this is a reason not to switch, but over the years i've invested quite alot in pinpoint... is time spent switching worth it? (i haven't found anything convincing). i have, for example, invested a year switching from a hawaiian fh grip to an extreme eastern/sw grip... so i'm willing to make the investment to change... question is, should i for the serve.

I would suggest that the stance is almost irrelevant and personally I wouldn't switch unless you try a few and it feels more natural for you but a switch isn't going to improve a serve that is fundamentally undeveloped.. not that yours is but you're asking.

[John Yandell]

Error,
Actually no. Again that position is full internal shoulder rotation, not so called pronation. It's analogous to to full extension on the forehand. Maximizing it maximizes racket speed--among other things. My view of it is part of this:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/article/the-serve-part-1/

But we can certainly agree to disagree.

[Error]

agreed, but that's why i'm on here. to figure out what the correct things are.
jy's fundamental vid is what i originally believed as the "main" fundamentals (and still do), but i'm also not serving 130mph, so clearly there are power sources i can be tapping into.

like you, i spend time daily (sometimes twice daily) hitting serves (between 100-400 serves)... i'm currently obsessed with developing a great 5.0+ level serve. i also find it way more productive than tracking down someone to hit with at the last minute :P

but since i'm out there anyway, willing to put in the work, i might as well go figure out and learn what specific tweaks i can be experimenting with.

There is a 5' 7" ATP player from Asia... or maybe he's not from Asia maybe he's just Asian.. I forget his name, He average serve in one tournament was 96 mph. His top was like 105 or 110. You might think that other players would easily tee off on those serves but that really inst the case. His serve is fast enough and with good placement to put the opponent on the defensive. At your height you must be doing something right if you are hitting in the 90s and getting it in consistently. Most recreational players I see, and I see a lot of them, dont come close to that speed and get them in the box.

It probably took my daughter 3 years of practice to add 20 mph to her serve. I have some video of her serve years ago and now but its part of a longer video and I cant figure out how to isolate just a small clip and just pull it to show you. We had a radar gun and her average first serve was 78mph.This was when she was about 16 or 17. Shes now 20. I'll go into a little more detail on how she did it...

[Error]

I think the confusion is terminology. Pronation technically is the rotation of the forearm from the elbow. That's different that internal shoulder rotation. Here is what Jack Groppel says about that:
"Having students emphasize internal shoulder rotation which then generates power down the arm to the hand causes less muscle stress." Internal shoulder rotation not pronation is what causes the racket to turn over. That's what Boris is doing in the clip. Vritually every top server does that.

OK then! Do we agree that ending with the racket face to the side is not a fundamental aspect of the serve and does not seem to be very significant to the quality of the serve?