role of hip snap in the serve?

[glacierguy]

I agree with you, Error. I still hit buckets of serves, usually early in the morning so I'm not distracted, practise makes perfect (one day). And your last sentence is why I posted vid of my serve - no pretending!!

[Error]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

One thing I'd like to add is that in my opinion, contributors like Dr Gordon who explain the precise biomechanics of the serve make it clear that they are not trying to explain how to teach the serve.

Well that's good to hear but there are plenty of people who dont make the distinction and do try to teach from this perspective which if you ask me (and nobody has) will do nothing but inhibit learning. You learn by doing. Its the "doing" that develops your skill level. The problem is people dont make a real effort at "doing". They make half hearted attempts and have unrealistic ideas and goals . Plus as you get older not many people have the motivation, desire and time to develop a consistent 100 mph serve.. And why go through all the hard work when you can just join a tennis forums and tell everyone you hit 120 mph kickers.. and never have to back it up.

[nytennisaddict]

I like to practice serving or warming up from behind the baseline. Doesn't matter where...one or two meters.

yeah that's a good one too.

[nytennisaddict]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

One thing I'd like to add is that in my opinion, contributors like Dr Gordon who explain the precise biomechanics of the serve make it clear that they are not trying to explain how to teach the serve.

And for a laugh, here is a video of me trying to remember my old serve, and yes, I know the leg drive is pathetic! But I'm not kidding, this is the first time I've ever seen my serve, and I'm rotating that shoulder, even though when I learnt to do that we didn't even have the vocabularly to describe the motion.

nice serve.
yeah, imagine explaining to my kid, with biomechanical terms, how to walk.
to me, it's one of reasons why i like macci... he uses language that kids/commoners/layfolk understand and can refer/remember when they are training.
i know some folks debate the flaw in the "pat the dog" tip,... but it to me it was just a progression he used to get beginners and intermediates to start tracing the correct racquet path. and it worked.

[don_budge]

i guess it's a good thing to practice on a slightly higher net?

I like to practice serving or warming up from behind the baseline. Doesn't matter where...one or two meters.

[glacierguy]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

One thing I'd like to add is that in my opinion, contributors like Dr Gordon who explain the precise biomechanics of the serve make it clear that they are not trying to explain how to teach the serve.

And for a laugh, here is a video of me trying to remember my old serve, and yes, I know the leg drive is pathetic! But I'm not kidding, this is the first time I've ever seen my serve, and I'm rotating that shoulder, even though when I learnt to do that we didn't even have the vocabularly to describe the motion.

[nytennisaddict]

hehe, measured the court i was on... net is about 2in higher than normal... i guess that's a good thing...
what made me curious, is that last night on a different court, i was serving lights out (flat down the T)... felt like i couldn't miss,...
went back to practice today, and i was clipping the tape more often.
i guess it's a good thing to practice on a slightly higher net?

back on topic... was experimenting with hip thrust and knee bend (pin point stance).. for me... feels like there's an ideal ratio... and while not scientific... it feels like the hip thrust contributes more to the horizontal vector (ie. more ball speed), whereas knee bend/leg thrust contributes more to the vertical vector (ie. more spin)

[nytennisaddict]

Good plan. I tell my performance students to try and practice around 200 serves a day, six days a week. That's 1200 a week...4800 a month...57,600 a year. Then, assuming you are developing and improving things technically, you'll get somewhere for sure.

thx for the response. any insights on how to maximize practice?
so my typical routine used to be, warmup, then serve "hard" at targets... a good day is i hit all the targets.
these days i'm isolating things... and probably spending more time "not serving"... eg. i'll stop if the toss is not perfect... i'll isolate loading various power sources...
eg. focus on shoulder tilt
eg. focus on legs
eg. focus on hip thrust
eg. focus on the follow through (keeping elbow high for example to promote hitting up)
eg. experiment with various timings of linking all the elements together
etc...
i did find that "serving slow", pretty helpful... hard to mask poor technique speeding through things.
so out of say 300 partial/full motions, i'll only hit like 20 "hard" serves

it's actually a routine/philosophy i got from training martial arts.... eg. in bjj, we don't "go hard" all the time... we spend alot of time "going slow" breaking things down and decomposing techqniues or combinations,... then only go "hard" once all the fundamentals are down.

[stotty]

Good plan. I tell my performance students to try and practice around 200 serves a day, six days a week. That's 1200 a week...4800 a month...57,600 a year. Then, assuming you are developing and improving things technically, you'll get somewhere for sure.

[nytennisaddict]

I remember when we would go out to practice serve, hundreds of serves and my daughter would be so excited she reached the back fence in one bounce which happened maybe once or twice a month. Literally thousands of serves and then one that hit the fence.. and thousands more and one or two would bounce to the fence.. and thousands more and now maybe 5% would hit the fence in one bounce.. Its happens so slowly, MUCH slower than we imagine it would. But those little things show you that you're learning, you're improving, its not a waste of time and effort.

haha, i still get excited when my ball hits the back fence... that said, the bounce of the ball, and surface do make a difference.
these days i get really excited about making a kicker hit the back fence... but most excited about a wide slice hitting the side fence, or a kicker hitting the side fence

what's your, or your daughter's practice routine and frequency?

i'm settling in on about 100 "hard" serves a day...
i might extend that to about 250 serves if i'm just focus on accuracy and form.
i also spend quite a bit of time on my toss indoors (eg. toss and load, and make sure my toss is a) going to the target location b) is landing approximately in the same place..

[nytennisaddict]

Forget about the pic in pic for now.

ok, so record from behind? (eg. over my right shoulder so you can also see where the ball lands?)

[nytennisaddict]

I saw this guy, play at the US OPEN qualifiers. He had a huge serve and he's like 5'7". He won vs who I think was the number one seed.. I could be wrong about that.

yeah, i know him well. some places in manhattan that i play, are all dominicans... and that's all they talk about is burgos
i was at last years quallies (Q2 Q3) too. was disappointed to not see him get through.

http://2014.usopen.org/en_US/scores/stats/day12/1308ms.html

top speed 126, avg 106
5'7"... is still a "giant" compared to me :P
lol i compare myself 5'4" to cibulkova 5'3, rochus 5'5.

played a match yesterday...
first serve: top speed was 94 (according to sony sensor), but mostly mid to high 80's
second serve: 50's (kicker)

[John Yandell]

Forget about the pic in pic for now.

[nytennisaddict]

Super video...you've got a tiger by the tail there. How long had you been playing tennis to this point when the video was made?

thanks, i've been playing for a while (decades on and off),... arguably poorly... i played as a kid, mostly learning from (coincidentally) a don budge how to book that my dad had, and alot of DIY
wasn't til later (as an adult that could afford lessons) that i took real lessons
but now with the advent of yt, websites like this, etc... i've been dedicated to fixing/improving the things i've been doing wrong, now that i have a much better idea of how to practice. for example, for the last year, weather permitting, i've been practicing serve almost daily for at least 30 min (usually 60 min) a day (eg. ~100 serves a day).... or even just practicing "toss & load" indoors.

[nytennisaddict]

Can't see much! I need higher fps with a shutter!

lol, i know... next sunny day i can practice, and have time to record, i will. i was also trying to figure out how to do the picture in picture thing... so i can also display sony sensor stats, and views from front and rear.