role of hip snap in the serve?

[stroke]

I think this Pat style(with the hip flexor stretch as Pat calls it) or limbo type stretch serve like Stan has(and I think Feliciano Lopez also) is way easier with more of a pinpoint type stance. Both Stan and Lopez kind of step up with their back foot as they toss the ball.

[nytennisaddict]

thoughts on karlovic, and what appears to be "hip out": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0RbHNOCaws
i know i know, he's ungodly tall, and that's why he serves so well...
but arguably if i was on the tour and the "only weapon" i have is my serve, i'd think he's spent alot of time optimizing his "only" money maker
maybe the hip thing is mainly for pin pointers?

[nytennisaddict]

NY,
You might find this instructive:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lder_rotation/

And this:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/article...e-archers-bow/

Pat is a friend of mine but we don't agree on this emphasis. And I don't think Brian's article needs an update. Why don't you look at is on court serve teaching progression?

jy, what's your analysis of how wawrinka produces a big serve?

[nytennisaddict]

When people talk about pronation on serve they are talking about pronating through contact where the racket face ends up facing the side not coming up on edge, even if you're technically correct, which I'm not sure you are because depending on who you listen to some people claim that what we refer to as pronation isn't actually technically pronation but that's neither here nor there. I just think it would benefit people to get their focus back on fundamentals and to practice fundamentals and forget about all of these side issues that serve (pun intended) to confuse and complicate otherwise simple concepts.

so what was your methodology for teaching your daughter? did you just have her throw a football for a while, and say, "just do that with a racquet now"?
or did you just demo, and she imitated?
what are they things you point out, correct, tweak, etc...?

how did she choose pinpoint vs. platform? even this question is a personal struggle for me... since i'm willing to spend the time, should i switch? according to salzy he prefers platform and made a switch,... every fed analysis says platform. henin switched to platform.... yet alot of big servers still serve pinpoint... not that this is a reason not to switch, but over the years i've invested quite alot in pinpoint... is time spent switching worth it? (i haven't found anything convincing). i have, for example, invested a year switching from a hawaiian fh grip to an extreme eastern/sw grip... so i'm willing to make the investment to change... question is, should i for the serve.

how did you and your daughter choose for yourselves? (especially since the stance is not considered fundamental).

[nytennisaddict]

That's not exactly what I'm saying but close. What I'm saying is if you practice the correct things then all it takes is time and effort and its impossible not to develop an advanced serve. But if you practice the wrong things, like hip snap, you're probably going to find it impossible to develop into the player you want to be. I think even if you practice the correct fundamentals which are basically the right grip, stance, toss and contact, people just under estimate the time it takes. And I mean really under estimate. For example I was on court for about two hours today practicing nothing but serve. I'll do about an hour a day on average, 6 months out of the year and only occasionally when I have to pay for indoor court time during the winter months.

This still is no where near the amount of time my daughter has put into into her serve over the years. I think people look for shortcuts. They cant imagine that it really takes years of pretty much daily practice to get really good at anything.

agreed, but that's why i'm on here. to figure out what the correct things are.
jy's fundamental vid is what i originally believed as the "main" fundamentals (and still do), but i'm also not serving 130mph, so clearly there are power sources i can be tapping into.

like you, i spend time daily (sometimes twice daily) hitting serves (between 100-400 serves)... i'm currently obsessed with developing a great 5.0+ level serve. i also find it way more productive than tracking down someone to hit with at the last minute :P

but since i'm out there anyway, willing to put in the work, i might as well go figure out and learn what specific tweaks i can be experimenting with.

[John Yandell]

I think the confusion is terminology. Pronation technically is the rotation of the forearm from the elbow. That's different that internal shoulder rotation. Here is what Jack Groppel says about that:
"Having students emphasize internal shoulder rotation which then generates power down the arm to the hand causes less muscle stress." Internal shoulder rotation not pronation is what causes the racket to turn over. That's what Boris is doing in the clip. Vritually every top server does that.

[Error]

Error,
Check out this BB clip. Pronation is a common term but inaccurate. Actually what turns the racket over is internal shoulder rotation. It's been measured and found to be a huge contributor to racket speed.
I agree with your basic point that over analyzing and focusing on things that are consequences rather than causes is counterproductive.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...LevelFront.mov

I'll check it out and I'll also try and locate the article I found on a study saying the exact opposite, that pronation (or whatever it is) was fairly insignificant. I hope I bookmarked it. Also If you look up guys like McEnroe Djokovic Kyrgios Becker ( there are many more) tell me if you see pronation through contact? I don't. Also if you search Youtube for "top ten servers" or something like that, watch the videos and notice that only about half of them end up with the racket face turned to the side. If half the WTA/ATP dont end up with their racket facing the side why are online coaches telling everyone its the secret to a great serve? Those four players I mentioned are all known for having great serves.


I Found the Article!
BEWARE of PRONATION! http://ushsta.org/beware-of-pronation/
According to the guy in the article pronation contributes under 5% to the speed of the ball.

[Error]

lol, honestly i just want a consistent serve that produces winners or sitters. if i could achieve that by doing a volley ball step up, with a 360 shoryuken move, i would :P
based on what your saying (this and previous comments), seems you're saying "just go practice alot until you look natural" :P (but i gotta believe there's more too... ie. serving technique is scultped not just born)

That's not exactly what I'm saying but close. What I'm saying is if you practice the correct things then all it takes is time and effort and its impossible not to develop an advanced serve. But if you practice the wrong things, like hip snap, you're probably going to find it impossible to develop into the player you want to be. I think even if you practice the correct fundamentals which are basically the right grip, stance, toss and contact, people just under estimate the time it takes. And I mean really under estimate. For example I was on court for about two hours today practicing nothing but serve. I'll do about an hour a day on average, 6 months out of the year and only occasionally when I have to pay for indoor court time during the winter months.

This still is no where near the amount of time my daughter has put into into her serve over the years. I think people look for shortcuts. They cant imagine that it really takes years of pretty much daily practice to get really good at anything.

[Error]

presuming you're not hitting a waiters tray serve, i presume that all good serves at least will approach the contact on racquet edge, then pronate (open the face) just prior to contact... how much it continues to pronate after varies... but to me that first part to contact is the "pronation" part.

When people talk about pronation on serve they are talking about pronating through contact where the racket face ends up facing the side not coming up on edge, even if you're technically correct, which I'm not sure you are because depending on who you listen to some people claim that what we refer to as pronation isn't actually technically pronation but that's neither here nor there. I just think it would benefit people to get their focus back on fundamentals and to practice fundamentals and forget about all of these side issues that serve (pun intended) to confuse and complicate otherwise simple concepts.

[nytennisaddict]

NYtennis,

You see inconsistency in technique between pro players and yet the results are great, makes you think about what fundamental things are really important?

Watch Boris Becker serve, he often steps into the court with his right foot which is like the old timers and the complete opposite of what most players do and yet he had one of the best serves ever and it would still be one of the best serves today. Guys like him and Edberg both of whom didn't pronate. Becker is on tape saying that serves were faster back then, that more players were hitting 140mph serves than today. Whether that's true or not I dont know but my point is there are only a few fundamental parts of the serve that matter. My theory is more knee bend benefits shorter players than taller ones because you need that extra push to catch the ball at a high contact point but that's just my observation. Sampras stuck his hip out.. Federer does not, Some people pronate some do not. Some players bring up the arm and racket at the same time, some do not. But they ALL of them serve amazingly well.

presuming you're not hitting a waiters tray serve, i presume that all good serves at least will approach the contact on racquet edge, then pronate (open the face) just prior to contact... how much it continues to pronate after varies... but to me that first part to contact is the "pronation" part.

[nytennisaddict]

NY,
Did you read the Ultimate Fundamentals article on the serve?

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ell/the_serve/
yup, i have...
helped me focus on keeping the contact more to the right of my head.... i have a tendency to always toss like i'm hitting a kicker (contact on left side of my head), even when i'm trying to hit a flat/"hard" slice/topslice first serve.

i've also been studying this one:
https://www.tennisplayer.net/article...serve-wind-up/

[John Yandell]

Error,
Check out this BB clip. Pronation is a common term but inaccurate. Actually what turns the racket over is internal shoulder rotation. It's been measured and found to be a huge contributor to racket speed.
I agree with your basic point that over analyzing and focusing on things that are consequences rather than causes is counterproductive.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/boris-becker/

[John Yandell]

NY,
Did you read the Ultimate Fundamentals article on the serve?

[nytennisaddict]

NYtennis,

You see inconsistency in technique between pro players and yet the results are great, makes you think about what fundamental things are really important?

Watch Boris Becker serve, he often steps into the court with his right foot which is like the old timers and the complete opposite of what most players do and yet he had one of the best serves ever and it would still be one of the best serves today. Guys like him and Edberg both of whom didn't pronate. Becker is on tape saying that serves were faster back then, that more players were hitting 140mph serves than today. Whether that's true or not I dont know but my point is there are only a few fundamental parts of the serve that matter. My theory is more knee bend benefits shorter players than taller ones because you need that extra push to catch the ball at a high contact point but that's just my observation. Sampras stuck his hip out.. Federer does not, Some people pronate some do not. Some players bring up the arm and racket at the same time, some do not. But they ALL of them serve amazingly well.

lol, honestly i just want a consistent serve that produces winners or sitters. if i could achieve that by doing a volley ball step up, with a 360 shoryuken move, i would :P
based on what your saying (this and previous comments), seems you're saying "just go practice alot until you look natural" :P (but i gotta believe there's more too... ie. serving technique is scultped not just born)

[Error]

NYtennis,

You see inconsistency in technique between pro players and yet the results are great, makes you think about what fundamental things are really important?

Watch Boris Becker serve, he often steps into the court with his right foot which is like the old timers and the complete opposite of what most players do and yet he had one of the best serves ever and it would still be one of the best serves today. Guys like him and Edberg both of whom didn't pronate. Becker is on tape saying that serves were faster back then, that more players were hitting 140mph serves than today. Whether that's true or not I dont know but my point is there are only a few fundamental parts of the serve that matter. My theory is more knee bend benefits shorter players than taller ones because you need that extra push to catch the ball at a high contact point but that's just my observation. Sampras stuck his hip out.. Federer does not, Some people pronate some do not. Some players bring up the arm and racket at the same time, some do not. But they ALL of them serve amazingly well.