The 4 Pillars of the Type III ATP Forehand

[rthodges]

Great input guys.

The type 3 swing isn't technically a looped motion so vertical momentum of the racquet exiting the backswing isn't really desired. The vertical position of the racquet head (in addition to external rotation) is a function of the flip so a downward motion artifact from the backswing or non-flip manipulation in the forward swing is actually an interference.

Some momentum of the hand may be marginally useful to help generate the forward force in the early forward swing by facilitating a feeling of fluidity. This is why some straight armers finish straightening the arm early in the forward swing. But this small amount of residual straightening is driven by the torso rotation and early non-twisting shoulder (motion dependent) rather than the elbow being actively extended. Building this into players creates a lot more problems than it solves - it must evolve as an optimization.

The problem with the elbow is two-fold: positioning and bending in the early forward swing. The key point to me goes back to the "hips create flips" idea. Proper sequencing implies the shoulder joint can be quite inactive (relaxed) in the first part of the forward swing. This is necessary for proper flip mechanics but is a skill not inherent to most learning the swing. Rather they try to "muscle" the early forward swing with the shoulder - this causes both the positioning and bending problem which are quite related and unfortunately familiar if they come from a type 1 or 2 background.

I think it is the desire to crush the ball (for my players) that causes this muscling. If they hit from the service line (mini-tennis) they all look like Fed. Move them back to the baseline and everything changes. It takes time and experience (if ever) to convince them they can crush it more if they sequence rather than muscle the early forward swing.

One key point that’s worked well for me is to have my elbow position set as the checkpoint for my left hand to let go of the racquet and extend. It’s been great for helping my upper body stay sequenced independent of footwork patterns and stances.

Any tips for stopping torso rotation before contact? My Achilles heal is over rotating my torso after the transition point.

[bobbyswift]

Wondering Brian if you are a fan of hand feeds to increase racket head speed. As always killer video!

[doctorhl]

Great input guys.

The type 3 swing isn't technically a looped motion so vertical momentum of the racquet exiting the backswing isn't really desired. The vertical position of the racquet head (in addition to external rotation) is a function of the flip so a downward motion artifact from the backswing or non-flip manipulation in the forward swing is actually an interference.

Some momentum of the hand may be marginally useful to help generate the forward force in the early forward swing by facilitating a feeling of fluidity. This is why some straight armers finish straightening the arm early in the forward swing. But this small amount of residual straightening is driven by the torso rotation and early non-twisting shoulder (motion dependent) rather than the elbow being actively extended. Building this into players creates a lot more problems than it solves - it must evolve as an optimization.

The problem with the elbow is two-fold: positioning and bending in the early forward swing. The key point to me goes back to the "hips create flips" idea. Proper sequencing implies the shoulder joint can be quite inactive (relaxed) in the first part of the forward swing. This is necessary for proper flip mechanics but is a skill not inherent to most learning the swing. Rather they try to "muscle" the early forward swing with the shoulder - this causes both the positioning and bending problem which are quite related and unfortunately familiar if they come from a type 1 or 2 background.

I think it is the desire to crush the ball (for my players) that causes this muscling. If they hit from the service line (mini-tennis) they all look like Fed. Move them back to the baseline and everything changes. It takes time and experience (if ever) to convince them they can crush it more if they sequence rather than muscle the early forward swing.

This Gordon quote is so damn good I felt impelled to also repeat it in this thread.

[doctorhl]

rthodges: Check out the website archives of Tommy Haas. He seems to brake his torso rotation at contact with a straighter left arm than most, but maybe that is not the best brake to copy.

[doctorhl]

Actually this months archive slo mo footage of Theim shows how he balances his body and brakes over rotation of torso by extension of left arm and then retraction of left arm to allow clearance for follow through. He certainly will need some kind of brake with that giant preparation!

[BrianGordon]

rthodges - great question. I don't think you want to stop torso rotation by contact. I mentioned in a well sequenced motion peak torso speed occurs about 2/3 through the forward swing. At contact 75% of that should still be present. The 25% decrease is a function of accelerating the hitting arm (which slows the torso by action/reaction). Over rotation can be manipulated to an extent by non-hitting arm patterns but to me it is just a band-aid for a symptom. The cause is improper sequencing - torso not oriented correctly at the start of forward swing, torso rotation peaks too early (over reliance) etc. I'd assess it from that perspective.

bobbyswift - thanks. Absolutely, use hand feeding a lot for that and many other purposes.

doctorhi - thanks for the kind words. Reading that I'm surprised I posted it - sounds way too coherent - must have been a rare good brain day.

[doctorhl]

Great response by BG regarding probable cause of torso over rotation....... a fitting example of how quantitative, biomechanical analysis supports, or often trumps qualitative observational analysis, even with the help of slow motion video. Brian, does the Olympic Center in Colorado Springs,( with all their toys), ever call on your expertise??

[BrianGordon]

I did work there as an applied and research biomechanist with USA Swimming and the 96 olympic team. Since I left in 97 to do my PhD I haven't heard a peep.

[rthodges]

rthodges - great question. I don't think you want to stop torso rotation by contact. I mentioned in a well sequenced motion peak torso speed occurs about 2/3 through the forward swing. At contact 75% of that should still be present. The 25% decrease is a function of accelerating the hitting arm (which slows the torso by action/reaction). Over rotation can be manipulated to an extent by non-hitting arm patterns but to me it is just a band-aid for a symptom. The cause is improper sequencing - torso not oriented correctly at the start of forward swing, torso rotation peaks too early (over reliance) etc. I'd assess it from that perspective.

bobbyswift - thanks. Absolutely, use hand feeding a lot for that and many other purposes.

doctorhi - thanks for the kind words. Reading that I'm surprised I posted it - sounds way too coherent - must have been a rare good brain day.

Thanks for the great answer! That makes sense, as it isn’t an issue when I hit balls in neutral stance or on the run. I have a strong hunch that my unit turn is still rusty from the large downturn in court time I’ve been logging since Covid-19 and the quarantines hit. I’ve got a vacation coming up this next week and will be able to play every day, so I’ll be sure to focus on the turn and sequencing when hitting. Also, on the 25% decrease as a function of accelerating the hitting arm: is it a passive acceleration that occurs with correct sequencing and orientation or is it an intentional movement?

doctorhl thanks for the tip on Haas and Thiem! I see what you mean with their left arms. It seems like they use the arm to compensate for shots in open stance where their left leg isn’t able to provide enough counter rotation, definitely applicable to me on the open stance shots I’ve been having trouble with.

[don_budge]

Thanks for the great answer! That makes sense, as it isn’t an issue when I hit balls in neutral stance or on the run. I have a strong hunch that my unit turn is still rusty from the large downturn in court time I’ve been logging since Covid-19 and the quarantines hit. I’ve got a vacation coming up this next week and will be able to play every day, so I’ll be sure to focus on the turn and sequencing when hitting. Also, on the 25% decrease as a function of accelerating the hitting arm: is it a passive acceleration that occurs with correct sequencing and orientation or is it an intentional movement?

doctorhl thanks for the tip on Haas and Thiem! I see what you mean with their left arms. It seems like they use the arm to compensate for shots in open stance where their left leg isn’t able to provide enough counter rotation, definitely applicable to me on the open stance shots I’ve been having trouble with.

Still at it rthodges? That's great. Speaking of Covid-19...are you working at this in a professional manner? I seem to remember you were either a resident, intern or some way in the Doctor chain. Interesting that your reason for edit was "Clarity". I always put "for clarity's sake".

[rthodges]

Still at it rthodges? That's great. Speaking of Covid-19...are you working at this in a professional manner? I seem to remember you were either a resident, intern or some way in the Doctor chain. Interesting that your reason for edit was "Clarity". I always put "for clarity's sake".

Still at it! I’ve only been able to hit the courts a few times in the past 5 months but that should be changing soon. You remembered right, I’m in my orthopaedic surgery residency. Clarity is a great catch all, much better than “accidentally tapped post on my phone mid sentence” lol.

[BrianGordon]

rthodges - the hitting arm motion should be relatively passive in the early forward swing progressing to more active (intentional) later in the forward swing.

[don_budge]

rthodges - the hitting arm motion should be relatively passive in the early forward swing progressing to more active (intentional) later in the forward swing.

Initiating the forward swing. I must hear the details. Every micro biomechanical detail. This sounds like a golf metaphor..."relatively passive to more active/intentional". Looking forwards to the next...don't get nervous BG.

[rthodges]

rthodges - the hitting arm motion should be relatively passive in the early forward swing progressing to more active (intentional) later in the forward swing.

Thanks, that makes so much more sense than what I was doing! For some reason I was under the impression the arm had to be passive for the duration of the forward swing had to be passive. I’m itching to get out and hit this Friday now, I took some practice shots actively using the hitting arm later in the swing and it feels like something clicked for me.

[seano]

Brian -

I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate all the time and effort you put into making the videos and answering all our questions. It's an amazing learning opportunity and we are very fortunate to have you as a resource. It only increases my thirst for knowledge.

Sean