Interactive Forum December 2021: Leylah Fernandez Forehand

[John Yandell]

Rose,
Yep. No outside racket position...

[ten1050]

Hello Brian,
I greatly enjoyed your analysis of Fernandez’s forehand. You described her as a spinner which I found most interesting. Some analysts have described Justine Henin as a player who spins. Would you say that Henin is a more efficient spinner than Fernandez? Do you believe that Henin might be the best female example of your teaching methodology.

Norman Ashbrooke

[John Yandell]

Happy to. Can you post a video of your current motion somewhere? The idea is that you are about in the trophy position at max knee bend.

[rosesunny]

I was looking at Tyler's serve( in the Tour strokes) and there is a video where you show "Working from a new position, Tyler improved the timing of the entry of the racket into the backswing."
I would like to try this. Can you please tell me, how to get into this position please? ( I cant tell if the arm is externally rotated). Your help would be great.thank you

[rosesunny]

Can you please help me understand in pratical terms what could Leilah change in terms of the hand position/raquet to have a type 3 fh? My specific question incides on noticing that at 10s of the video, she is in a raquet outside position of the hand/racquet.. so if she had this configuration at the end of the backswing, in terms of outside position of the hand/racquet she would have the type 3 fh configuration? So maybe she is trying to emulate the type 3 fh that the guys do by bringing the raquet out at 10s, but loses it as she moves the racquet in afterwards..so a simple correction there, of bringing the racquet further back to the outside at the end of her backswing could have the desired type 3 fh effect. Another issue would then be the sequencing of the torso segments plus independent shoulder rotation to produce the forward force orientation required. Right? Thank you

[jeremy93]

I feel that another way of saying this is she does not rotate her body (initiation of the forward swing) with the hitting palm down (pronated elbow). Because of this it is not considered a type 3 forehand. Let me know if I’m wrong or you have something to add. Thanks.

[BrianGordon]

Hi guys:

There is no question she hits it well, the question is at what cost. The objective of my approach is to produce the independent arm motion at the shoulder joint with minimum joint torque (muscular load). Given the inertia of a straight arm I think this is important.

Sequencing is used to mitigate the adduction load and the dynamic flip is used to mitigate the internal rotation load. In both regards her technique appears to replace mechanical efficacy with excessive muscular (at the shoulder joint) activation - "muscling" the shot. Of course we can't know for sure without the torque profiles and I'd love to see those.

I like the straight arm obviously as perhaps the biggest advocate of that configuration. On the other hand I question the way the accelerations are derived when considering short term localized fatigue and longer term participation. She is a bit of a pioneer at this level and I'm pulling for her - certainly we will all learn a lot.

[jeffreycounts]

I guess I’m more optimistic about her forehand. I was watching this video on YouTube of her practicing and she’s hitting the ball very, very hard with just enough topspin to keep it in. I think the straight arm is giving her great contact with the ball and an earlier contact point, which is probably really hard to read. I also think the straight arm helps with those half volley forehands where her knee is on the ground. She still hits those really hard.

I like her extension too as John mentioned. She really drives her shoulder through the ball. In the slow motion clip she has a sleeveless shirt so can see how her left shoulder is working the ball.

https://youtu.be/5BALxdQSSto

[seano]

3. The dynamic flip is used to pre-tense the muscles that create twisting rotation of the arm segments in the forward swing. Hers is a “lag” which does not accomplish this goal. Instead, the racquet rotation simply extends the wrist. This is the configuration she will need for racquet orientation at contact, and to produce a bit of a slap.

4. Typical of Type II strokes with an inside loop, her torso rotation profile is synchronous (hips and shoulders spin about the vertical axis in tandem). She departs from the Type II model by extensive independent rotation at the shoulder. The dynamic flip of the Type III swing requires sequencing of the torso segments plus independent shoulder rotation to produce the forward force orientation required.

5. Sequencing implies converting linear forces from the ground to propagating rotations of the segments up the chain. Spinning uses rotational torques from the ground to produce a spin rotation of the entire body. She is primarily a spinner and this explains her squatting propensity on tough balls.

Ahh the words of Dr. Gordon - I've missed them )

My take aways -
1) The flip occurs from an outside position of the hand/racquet and occurs because of the pulling forward of the hand which externally rotates the shoulder.
2) Sequencing of the hip to torso to shoulder must occur (first 1/3 = firing of hips, second 1/3 = torso rotation, third 1/3 = independent arm motion) as opposed to the trunk/torso/shoulder moving as a unit (trunk dominated swing).
3) Interesting about the independent arm motion from Leyla at the end of stroke and how that differs from most and shows up as a slap.
4) Still alittle fuzzy of meaning of Leyla being a spinner?

Sean

[John Yandell]

Introduction by Dr. Brian Gordon

In earlier article I defined some of the components of what I call a Type III ATP forehand. I have also been outspoken that females could hit the stroke. Naturally, as Leylah burst onto the pro scene many noticed the straight arm and opined, for that reason, she could be an example of the Type III.

But she is not:

1. Her back swing is Type II with an inside roll. It is simply an inside loop – her (not so unique these days) slant is that she completes the loop with an elbow extension.

2. While she exits the backswing with a straight arm, the racquet is positioned inside the hand (and often below) – this precludes a true “dynamic flip” as I’ve defined it.

3. The dynamic flip is used to pre-tense the muscles that create twisting rotation of the arm segments in the forward swing. Hers is a “lag” which does not accomplish this goal. Instead, the racquet rotation simply extends the wrist. This is the configuration she will need for racquet orientation at contact, and to produce a bit of a slap.

4. Typical of Type II strokes with an inside loop, her torso rotation profile is synchronous (hips and shoulders spin about the vertical axis in tandem). She departs from the Type II model by extensive independent rotation at the shoulder. The dynamic flip of the Type III swing requires sequencing of the torso segments plus independent shoulder rotation to produce the forward force orientation required.

5. Sequencing implies converting linear forces from the ground to propagating rotations of the segments up the chain. Spinning uses rotational torques from the ground to produce a spin rotation of the entire body. She is primarily a spinner and this explains her squatting propensity on tough balls.

There are infinite ways to combine body rotations to hit a ball. To her credit, Leylah has constructed a forehand solution that has allowed her to hit it at a high level and that is great. But… I would certainly not teach these elements to my developing players. To me her interpretation is ill-conceived – I guess time will tell if it is among the panes in her glass ceiling.