Roland Garros Update

[stotty]

I have also gathered that some players like Berrettini, Tsitsipas, and Ruud, seem to be putting up more rpm's than Rafa, but as JY had alluded to, no one can measure the exact type of spin. It seems to me the Rafa hook spin is stand alone, the way he can use it to expand the court on the ad side, and bring it back into the court on the deuce side. The closest thing tennis wise I have ever seen to ping pong type spin. If you ever watch or Google any world class ping pong, they are all using the hook type topspin.

It is a devastating shot because he keeps righties pinned into the backhand corner (or runs them off the court) with it. Then he belts one up the line when he has the gap or just to keep opponents honest. Novak has a hooking forehand also and, if you remember, he first used it to good effect in the earlier days when he had finally learned to master Rafa by pulling him off the court and forcing him to chip his backhand. But Novak hits more 'over' the ball whereas Rafa hits 'round' it and gives the ball real bend.

I can't imagine 14 FO's ever being beaten and I wonder if it's the greatest achievement in sport, not just tennis. And he's done it in an era of great players that include Novak and Roger.

[jimlosaltos]

On the off chance this digression is of interest:

Perhaps someone has tried this in tennis, but as long as I've followed tennis I've never heard of that.

Rapsodo is a $3,000 high-speed camera-based device that can measure ball spin, including the direction not just RPMs. It started in golf, where it can track the movement of dimples on a golf ball, then reached into baseball, where it tracks the seam. Presumably it could track a tennis ball logo - if the software development work was worth the money.
https://rapsodo.com/shop/product/rap...xoCgKsQAvD_BwE

Rapsodo measures components of spin on a baseball pitch, and describes how the pitch will or will not break in turns of percent of spin that is gyro spin
https://rapsodo.com/understanding-ra...ider-changeup/

Overview:

https://youtu.be/f7PKduEQzmQ

One vid here:
https://youtu.be/tkd5DcapAHc

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[jimlosaltos]

I have also gathered that some players like Berrettini, Tsitsipas, and Ruud, seem to be putting up more rpm's than Rafa, but as JY had alluded to, no one can measure the exact type of spin. It seems to me the Rafa hook spin is stand alone, the way he can use it to expand the court on the ad side, and bring it back into the court on the deuce side. The closest thing tennis wise I have ever seen to ping pong type spin. If you ever watch or Google any world class ping pong, they are all using the hook type topspin.

I wish someone would look at sidespin in tennis. There is no technical reason it can't be measured -- just takes resources (aka money)

Hey, it's only money !

If the spin of an electron can be measured, surely a tennis ball's can <g>.

{ Bigger $ involved in the electron, since its quantum states, including spin, are keys to quantum computing, using "Spooky Action At a Distance", or teleportation ala Star Trek}
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/t...smid=url-share }

More down to earth, baseball pitchers work on the type of spin they use.

Odd note: One of the first times I thought about sidespin on Rafa's forehand was when billionaire Larry Ellison talked about hitting with Rafa before the Indian Wells tournament Ellison runs and noting how the sidespin on his forehand made hitting difficult.

Here's an example of how MLB uses spin:

• She astonishes me’: How an astrophysicist is helping the Oakland A’s fine-tune their pitches
  Oakland Athletics pitching analyst Samantha Schultz brings astrophysics to her MLB job
  
  https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/08/...their-pitches/
  
  
  Excerpts: "Her post-graduate plan had been to get her Ph.D. in particle physics. That wasn’t her plan anymore. Through tears over the phone, Schultz told her mother the new one: to work in baseball."
  
  
  "Schultz understands a breaking ball can be more effective when its gyro spin — or bullet spin — is high. Or a two-seam fastball can be more effective when it creates turbulent pockets of air. She’ll suggest a pitcher adjust his grip or throw harder at a different angle to create the wanted movement.
  
  “If I say, ‘OK, we need to get more gyro spin on this ball,’ what I might say to a pitcher is to roll it off your middle finger,” Schultz said.
  
  She knows Trivino’s cutter needs to have force that creates movement to the negative side. That means Trivino must apply different pressures or throw at different angles to get his cutter to actually cut off his other pitches.
  
  With Schultz’s help, Trivino is finally seeing negative movement on his cutter again. He knows in Schultz’s terms, those negatives are a positive.
  
  
  “That’s the beautiful thing about Sam,” Trivino said. “I’m getting negative numbers now.”

[stroke]

I have also gathered that some players like Berrettini, Tsitsipas, and Ruud, seem to be putting up more rpm's than Rafa, but as JY had alluded to, no one can measure the exact type of spin. It seems to me the Rafa hook spin is stand alone, the way he can use it to expand the court on the ad side, and bring it back into the court on the deuce side. The closest thing tennis wise I have ever seen to ping pong type spin. If you ever watch or Google any world class ping pong, they are all using the hook type topspin.

[jimlosaltos]

I would be very interested in Nadal's and Ruud's forehand average spin rates. Never saw any numbers the entire match. It certainly is clear to me no one bends/swerves the forehand like Nadal, but in the past, Ruud's forehand spin rates compare favorably to Nadal. I think the rpm spin rate is the the more telling forehand stat. They all hit plenty of mph's.

Sorry. I can't find spin "averages" on the Roland Garros site, but the InfoSys data has numbers for individual "winners" if one is willing to spend the tedious time digging through each shot .

But I also resurrected up the research I did last year for TPN (table below), literally going through hundreds of individual shots to find the high "outliers".

After that table are two captures of InfoSys data on a Ruud shots, one from this year at Roland Garros showing 3,509 RPMs, the other from last year vs Bublik at Paris, I believe showing 3,716 RPMs.

A couple years before, a compilation showed Ruud having the highest spin average, higher than Rafa, but lower MPHs.

Hope that helps.

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[jimlosaltos]

Every major has to have a "Cinderella, or Cinderella". For me, it was 19 yo Zheng Qinwen -- the only player to get a set ( or a lead) off women's winner Iga Swiatek, losing 7-6(5) 0-6 2-6.

Zheng hit with some of the highest velocity of any woman player in the event. I posted those numbers earlier in this thread.

Here's some background on what a young player from a low GDP country has to do to become a professional player. Note the particular coaches she's had.


NYT excerpts:
/

"Zheng, now based in Barcelona, Spain, and coached by Pere Riba, a former top-100 men’s player, has spent much of her short life away from home. Originally from the central Chinese city of Shiyan, Zheng was encouraged by her parents to choose a sport.

She was an only child but said she moved to Wuhan, the capital of Hubei province and about 250 miles from Shiyan, when she was just 8. She said she spent four years there. ...

The talent scouts soon agreed. IMG signed her to a contract at age 11, not long after her father convinced her mother to make the long journey to the United States with Zheng in November 2013 to take part in the Nick Bollettieri Discovery Open, an event at the IMG Academy in Bradenton, Fla., that was open to young players without an invitation.

Her first impression?
.

“The first thought I had in the head was, ‘Wow, the sky is so blue,’” she said. “Because China, you know, had a little bit of pollution at that time.”

Upon returning to China, she eventually relocated to Beijing to train at an academy run by Carlos Rodriguez, the Argentine-Belgian coach who worked with Li at the end of her career and had spent more than a decade coaching Justine Henin, a former No. 1 player.

Zheng said she spent 90 minutes a day working with Rodriguez for several years on technique, tactics and her mentality. “I think Carlos made the base for what I am right now,” Zheng said.

[glacierguy]

George was something else, wasn't he? One of the most amazing soccer players ever. He moved like very much like Nastase too.

If you didn't see it with your own eyes (on TV) you wouldn't believe how good he was. My point being that it's how bright the light shines, not how long you can keep it on. So Fed for me. (And I'm only considering the modern era.)

[stotty]

George Best career trophies: 1 European Cup, 2 Division One Championships

George was something else, wasn't he? One of the most amazing soccer players ever. He moved like very much like Nastase too.

[stroke]

Odds for 2023 FO winner: Novak and Alcaraz at +162, Nadal is 3rd favorite at +250. I guess the oddsmakers think it would be difficult for someone to win 15 FO's.

[stroke]

Dare I say you suffer from "recency bias". Sorry. I simply had to

I certainly could, who knows

[glacierguy]

George Best career trophies: 1 European Cup, 2 Division One Championships

[jimlosaltos]

No doubt. I am not eager to bring up the GOAT discussion again, but at this point to me Fed, the easiest on the eye player ever, the guy most of us in our dreams would like to play like, is #3. Nadal, with his greatest achievement in all of sports(14 FO's)and 23 GS titles, and his astonishing Master 1000's results, is #1. Novak, with his 21 GS's, his even more impressive Master 1000's titles, and his weeks at #1, is #2. That leave Roger at #3,. Just my opinion.

It is something, as I thought when Fed beat Nadal in that incredible 2017 AO final, I thought Fed had put a fork in this discussion.

Dare I say you suffer from "recency bias". Sorry. I simply had to

[jimlosaltos]

Stotty alluded to Nadals swerve serve to the ad court. No doubt, lefties have an advantage here as that is often on ad or break points on that side. I can think only one other player who gets the swerve/swing on his serve as Nadal, Giles Mueller. Giles serve was better, but he had nothing close to the Nadal forehand to finish the job.

A rule change I'd like is that, on ad points, returner can pick the side. Would even out the unfair lefty advantage a bit. One can dream.

[jimlosaltos]

I would be very interested in Nadal's and Ruud's forehand average spin rates. Never saw any numbers the entire match. It certainly is clear to me no one bends/swerves the forehand like Nadal, but in the past, Ruud's forehand spin rates compare favorably to Nadal. I think the rpm spin rate is the the more telling forehand stat. They all hit plenty of mph's.

Thanks.

Never found averages on spin this year and aggregating those numbers for "winners" is extraordinaryily tedious. But back when I did that last year Ruud was higher than Rafa but with less velocity. That's what I found in InfoSys, I can't guarantee reliable projections from them.

[stotty]

I pulled some velocity stats from the RG site for a handful of players.

You might find this of interest. Obviously, speed isn't everything because Rafa won and he doesn't have the top number in any category -- except 14 trophies.

I highlighted the highest speed in each column in Red, for both ATP and WTA. In "Average Forehand" Felix AA has the top at 77 mph average, but I also included the cluster at 76, to illustrate that clustering.

Note: These are mostly "Averages". While our human tendency is to say that 77 is better than 76, the variance from match to match for any given player at the same tournament can be 2-3 mph. Someone that plays at night, or against a slower or faster hitting opponent can see their numbers go up and down. Matches in early rounds were not recorded, and some matches were ignored because of the stadium they were in, presumably because of lack of Hawkeye. As for the few "Highs", their system only shows "Winners", so there is no point in trying to be definitive. A player's "Fastest" shot might not be a winner. So, I grabbed some that seemed representative. Unlike Roland Garro's stats last year, this year's set does NOT distinguish amongst groundstrokes. Last year, the system showed whether a shot was a forehand, backhand, volley etc. Now, it is just a "Winner". Presumably, a "Winner" that lands outside the service box is not a serve. I offer no guarantees Your mileage may vary.

Some things that pop out to me: Most everything is clustered, amongst this group, but Zverev's velocity stands out. as does Cilic's In fact, Cilic's backhand averaged faster than any player's forehand, except FAA's. On the WTA side, I did not realize Paula Badosa was among the biggest hitters. Also Chinese 19 year old, Qinwen Zheng stands out. I hadn't even heard of her.

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Interesting how slow Ruud's backhand is..and FAA's. Second serves seem to quite slow looking at the table and may back up Tim Henman's theory that second serves have gotten slower over the years and not quicker.