Defining Novak

[jimlosaltos]

Sure, I was just putting it out there before chiming in with my view. I like to know what others think and how they see things.

I certainly think you're on the right track. I feel Novak's success is based on accumulative assets which add up significantly. A great backhand can never match the sockdolager forehand that Roger's is, but when it's precise and ultra consistent, as Novak's backhand is, it can count for a lot in the end. I think his ability to redirect the ball when he's attacking is terrific, and also his sheer belief. Belief is probably a big part of any great player's success...keeping you head when those around you are losing theirs. One of the greatest feats in any tennis match is when Borg lost the fourth set tiebreak to McEnroe in the 1980 Wimbledon final. Borg then went 0-30 down on his serve in the opening game of the fifth but then hauled himself together and lost only one further point on his serve during the entire 5th set, serving around 80% first serves. That's resolve...belief.

Perhaps the most striking thing about Novak is the qualities he doesn't have, some of which you have mentioned already, such as his forecourt abilities, etc. Yet despite this he is still a great player.

By the way, thank you for adding this word to my vocabulary. I shall shamelessly sprinkle this in ...
I believe it ranks up there with "gobsmacked"

sock?dol?ag?er
/s?kˈd?lijər/
noun
INFORMAL•US

1. 1.
   a forceful blow.
2. 2.
   an exceptional person or thing.

[jimlosaltos]

To summarize and help me remember you guys excellent Djokovic analysis:

Excellent use of #1,2 and 3 above, supported by superb mental fitness to go into lockdown mode and superb physical fitness which enables movement to enable “aggressive shots to large targets/ margins of errors. I remember competing against excellent players with this particular playing style at the club level and hated them for their confidence in watching me slowly melt down.

Thanks doctorhl. You made my otherwise dreary morning

[doctorhl]

Good points. I was thinking of that last night.

Djokovic's game and that of Federer are more similar than, perhaps, some would admit.

Sure, there are differences but consider:

1) Location servers
2) Want to control the baseline, hugging it as soon as possible.
3) Change directions more than most.

Now, in the elegance and creativity departments ... they diverge

To summarize and help me remember you guys excellent Djokovic analysis:

Excellent use of #1,2 and 3 above, supported by superb mental fitness to go into lockdown mode and superb physical fitness which enables movement to enable “aggressive shots to large targets/ margins of errors. I remember competing against excellent players with this particular playing style at the club level and hated them for their confidence in watching me slowly melt down.

[jimlosaltos]

His movement, obviously. And ability to defend from relatively close to the baseline. But maybe more important I say his incredibly high tolerance for pain. I find him painful and exhausting to watch.

Good points. I was thinking of that last night.

Djokovic's game and that of Federer are more similar than, perhaps, some would admit.

Sure, there are differences but consider:

1) Location servers
2) Want to control the baseline, hugging it as soon as possible.
3) Change directions more than most.

Now, in the elegance and creativity departments ... they diverge

[stotty]

Good recall. Wonder why Novak didn't do that at the USO then, or whether Medy did something to neutralize it?

I think Meddy dictated more with his heavy artillery in the US Open final. He served exceptionally well on his first and second serves and was more offensive off the ground. In the Aussie Open, I felt final he went out to out-rally Novak from a shot tolerance point of view. Novak's team pre-empted that game plan and went on the offensive, redirecting Meddy's ground shots to incredible effect.

I think Meddy and Rafa have learned of late that you cannot allow Novak to dictate rallies in that way. Even on clay Rafa has to be offensive against Novak to stop him controlling matters. Rafa did that beautifully in the recent FO final.

Interesting point from John about Novak's ability to defend from close to the baseline.

[John Yandell]

His movement, obviously. And ability to defend from relatively close to the baseline. But maybe more important I say his incredibly high tolerance for pain. I find him painful and exhausting to watch.

[jimlosaltos]

Actually when Novak defeated Meddy in the 2021 Aussie Open final it was redirection at it's very best. Meddy learned a lot from that drubbing.

Good recall. Wonder why Novak didn't do that at the USO then, or whether Medy did something to neutralize it?

Tangentially, I member somebody (Mark Petchy?} saying after Zverev beat Alcaraz in straights at RG that Alcaraz needed to "play him like he's a left hander", criticized him for "not changing directions nearly enough". I imagine he'd say the same of playing Medvedev.

[stotty]

Good points. I was thinking that I omitted Djokovic's ability to change directions/ go DTL with his backhand. That was one of his key strengths. I remember Andy Roddick saying "Djokovic is the best at changing directions on his backhand."

I've also noted Djokovic has done that less in recent years during key matches with Medvedev & Zverev. In fact, if I'm remembering this correctly, at the US Open the key point came in the second set when it seemed as if Novak was mounting one of his classic "go into lockdown mode, turn the match around" modes and Medy, facing break point and moving backwards went DTL for a winner.

It might -- might -- be that their backhands are good enough to keep Novak from changing directions?

Actually when Novak defeated Meddy in the 2021 Aussie Open final it was redirection at it's very best. Meddy learned a lot from that drubbing.

[jimlosaltos]

Sure, I was just putting it out there before chiming in with my view. I like to know what others think and how they see things.

I certainly think you're on the right track. I feel Novak's success is based on accumulative assets which add up significantly. A great backhand can never match the sockdolager forehand that Roger's is, but when it's precise and ultra consistent, as Novak's backhand is, it can count for a lot in the end. I think his ability to redirect the ball when he's attacking is terrific, and also his sheer belief. Belief is probably a big part of any great player's success...keeping you head when those around you are losing theirs. One of the greatest feats in any tennis match is when Borg lost the fourth set tiebreak to McEnroe in the 1980 Wimbledon final. Borg then went 0-30 down on his serve in the opening game of the fifth but then hauled himself together and lost only one further point on his serve during the entire 5th set, serving around 80% first serves. That's resolve...belief.

Perhaps the most striking thing about Novak is the qualities he doesn't have, some of which you have mentioned already, such as his forecourt abilities, etc. Yet despite this he is still a great player.

Good points. I was thinking that I omitted Djokovic's ability to change directions/ go DTL with his backhand. That was one of his key strengths. I remember Andy Roddick saying "Djokovic is the best at changing directions on his backhand."

I've also noted Djokovic has done that less in recent years during key matches with Medvedev & Zverev. In fact, if I'm remembering this correctly, at the US Open the key point came in the second set when it seemed as if Novak was mounting one of his classic "go into lockdown mode, turn the match around" modes and Medy, facing break point and moving backwards went DTL for a winner.

It might -- might -- be that their backhands are good enough to keep Novak from changing directions?

[stroke]

I would agree, as almost everyone else that Novak has the best service return of all time. I would also say his hitting posture off both sides, over and over again, when he is in the mood, is the best ever. It looks like a perfect athletic hitting posture to me like none else. That has a massive effect on his clinical consistency. His shoulders are back, his chest is out, his back is perfectly straight, his knees perfectly bent, just amazing athletic posture consistency. Of course, his amazing footwork is in the mix here also.

[stotty]

Stotty, I'm back from the courts at 92 ℉ ... let's see if I can boil down my thoughts, be more concise, and have something that gives Novak credit his game deserves.

What defines Djokovic's game is "relentless pressure"

Opponents feel they have no room for error, and crack under the pressure.

Works for you?

/ jim

Sure, I was just putting it out there before chiming in with my view. I like to know what others think and how they see things.

I certainly think you're on the right track. I feel Novak's success is based on accumulative assets which add up significantly. A great backhand can never match the sockdolager forehand that Roger's is, but when it's precise and ultra consistent, as Novak's backhand is, it can count for a lot in the end. I think his ability to redirect the ball when he's attacking is terrific, and also his sheer belief. Belief is probably a big part of any great player's success...keeping you head when those around you are losing theirs. One of the greatest feats in any tennis match is when Borg lost the fourth set tiebreak to McEnroe in the 1980 Wimbledon final. Borg then went 0-30 down on his serve in the opening game of the fifth but then hauled himself together and lost only one further point on his serve during the entire 5th set, serving around 80% first serves. That's resolve...belief.

Perhaps the most striking thing about Novak is the qualities he doesn't have, some of which you have mentioned already, such as his forecourt abilities, etc. Yet despite this he is still a great player.

[jimlosaltos]

Stotty, I'm back from the courts at 92 ℉ ... let's see if I can boil down my thoughts, be more concise, and have something that gives Novak credit his game deserves.

What defines Djokovic's game is "relentless pressure"

Opponents feel they have no room for error, and crack under the pressure.

Works for you?

/ jim

[jimlosaltos]

So it's mostly about consistency and strategy in your view? In which case, why doesn't everyone do it?

ALL he does? Heck, no. But at the top levels every player does most everything quite well. You seemed to be asking what distinguishes his game. It's not a shot how he combines very good ones, IMHO.

Expanding what I wrote, starts with the return and serve, the first is tremendous, arguably the best ever, while the second shot very good.
Only a couple of players are in the ball park on the first, and a few dozen on the second. Precious few if any have both at his level.

Then there are rock solid groundstrokes with remarkable accuracy. Numerous pros have said "Novak is a machine" for a reason. I've heard that same phrase repeatedly when players try to describe the Big 3. When the get to Novak, it's "He's a machine." From people that hit thousands of reps a day for a living that's high praise.

But I'd argue that what distinguishes Djokovic is his ability to continually apply pressure. He hits an "80% shot' over and over, with few weak ones that allow his opponent to get on top of the rally, and few errors. Must take remarkable concentration, determination, fitness, and a single-minded focus.

That cumulative pressure that Djokovic can generate and sustain is, IMHO, what distinguishes him.

Where Djokovic has weaknesses, they are extremely hard to expose. As his ex-coach said, "Worst overhead in the ATP top 100". But how does a player safely lure him into hitting overheads?

Net movement is not top flight, but comes in on good shots and volleys decently so it's hard to expose that.

Drop shots? Slice backhand? He should put those clubs back in the bag and not take them out again <g>. But that would make him even better !

[stotty]

Well, I'll stick my neck out and give it a try. Novak's all about neutralizing and then controlling court position.

It starts with Novak's return of serve, and well placed first serve. After he's used them to neutralize his opponent's offense, Novak controls court position and goes into "lockdown mode", hitting aggressive shots to large targets/ margins (a Paul Annacone phrase) forcing his opponent's to go for ever more until he elicits an UFE.

Novak is all about making you hit a lower percentage shot than he is.

So it's mostly about consistency and strategy in your view? In which case, why doesn't everyone do it?

[jimlosaltos]

Defining Roger and Rafa is easy. Two great players whose games are underpinned by amazing forehands, the most important shot in the game.

But what about Novak? He has a good forehand but not in the same hypersonic way as Roger and Rafa. He has a great backhand, but then so have Zverev and a host of others....Rafa's backhand is pretty handy these days too. Novak has a well-placed serve but it's nothing like Roger's, nor does it have the lefty awkwardness of Rafa's delivery.

So how is Novak doing it? What makes him the great player that he is? I would be interested to hear others' thoughts on what defines Novak's game.

Well, I'll stick my neck out and give it a try. Novak's all about neutralizing and then controlling court position.

It starts with Novak's return of serve, and well placed first serve. After he's used them to neutralize his opponent's offense, Novak controls court position and goes into "lockdown mode", hitting aggressive shots to large targets/ margins (a Paul Annacone phrase) forcing his opponent's to go for ever more until he elicits an UFE.

Novak is all about making you hit a lower percentage shot than he is.