Coco's Forehand: Some Hamburger with Your Sushi

[don_budge]

I've been texting with Brad. They have done nothing technical. It's confidence building and tactics. Brad wanted more air and shape on the groundstrokes and that seems to have magically eliminated the technical problems on her forehand.

Fascinating. This was my take when I first read about Brad Gilbert's involvement and perhaps the counter intuitive approach to this player. But my philosophy with players is you have to play with what you've got. My impression of Gilbert is that this guy is the quintessential corner man. A tactical coach. As a player he had the reputation of winning "ugly". Maybe he didn't have the prettiest strokes in the eye of some of the more casual "connoisseurs". But what is ugly about winning...period. No...Brad has the right approach to this game and it isn't one of first priority technique. It is all about the tactics and playing to the score. The mental side. There have been many great players who don't hit it with the conventional technique most pleasing to the eye but still manage to find a way to win. Jim Courier is a great example. There are too many to mention. I have really enjoyed the Coco results that have come after the initial collaboration. Fantastic stuff!

The guy is a corner man. He knows what his player can do. He has an eye for understanding the strengths and weaknesses of any given player based solely on his eye...his observations. He doesn't need a second opinion. Brad is a coach who earns his keep. His player is going to take the court with a game plan A, B and C. His player is going to understand what shot to play in given situations based on his opponent and the score in the match. I don't understand what a lot of these coaches do to earn their keep but I do know that Brad earns his based on his tactical acumen and his ability to motivate. Such an interesting story in a dull page in the book of tennis. Jeez...I wonder if at some point Brad will have her serving and volleying. This is an area of the women's game that should be mined and exploited. Coco has a pretty darn good service motion. Hmmm...

[jimlosaltos]

Cross posting this here.

"latest 2023 U.S. Open odds have Swiatek as the +200 betting favorite (risk $100 to win $200). Second-ranked Aryna Sabalenka is at +440, while sixth-ranked Cori Gauff is at +700."

To date, tennis has had less "prop" betting, so I can't share an over/under on Coco's forehand winners nor UFEs <g>.

Soon, we'll probably be able to post bets in our apps in real time, as in "Bet now on whether Isner's next service will be an ace. Bets close in 30 seconds." <g>

https://www.cbssports.com/tennis/new...20slam%20title.

[jimlosaltos]

Coco in today's NYT:

"“Let’s be real, anybody who is watching me play knows what I need to work on,” Gauff said in Washington when asked whether there might be conflicts between Gilbert and Pere Riba, the coach she hired in June. “You know, they know, the fans know.”

And: "To Gauff, Gilbert’s coaching success had mostly happened before she was born, she said with a giggle during the Citi Open. That said, Gilbert did start with both Agassi and Roddick shortly before they each won the U.S. Open. And his tweaks to her strokes, making them slightly shorter and more controlled and reminding her at every turn of her supreme athleticism — no one covers a court like Gauff these days — began to show immediate results."

[jimlosaltos]

Interesting profile of Brad Gilbert from NYT's today.
Excerpt regarding some champs, Coco -- and Zendaya.

"Then there is this: Gilbert began working with Agassi in March 1994, and Agassi won the U.S. Open that September. Gilbert began working with Roddick in June 2003. Three months later, Roddick was the U.S. Open champion

They were different players. Agassi, Gilbert said, had a photographic memory and an analytical mind that could take apart a match hours later, stroke by stroke, with total recall. Roddick was so exuberant that Gilbert had roughly 15 seconds to deliver any message before his attention went elsewhere.

His take on Gauff? Kind of like Zendaya, he said.

Both were prodigies who began working on their craft and breaking through as young children. They’re around the same height, about 5 feet 10 inches. And Zendaya has the wingspan of someone closer to 6-4, he said. Great athletic physique. If only he had gotten to teach her tennis when she was younger.

They were texting the other day, on Zendaya’s 27th birthday. She told him she was watching and was all in on Gauff. He said he was, too. Just as he wanted.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/02/s...smid=url-share

[arturohernandez]

I've been texting with Brad. They have done nothing technical. It's confidence building and tactics. Brad wanted more air and shape on the groundstrokes and that seems to have magically eliminated the technical problems on her forehand.

I think if there was someone they might consult is Carlos Rodriguez. He worked on Henin's forehand and serve using specific models.

Or Brad could call on Agassi. Agassi had a great forehand but it was not his best shot. I know everyone thinks he was balanced but I consider his backhand better than his forehand.

However, he was able to hit a great forehand anyway and I think it was in part because it was so simple.

Gauff's forehand seems long and complicated. Eventually, she will have to address the problem. Maybe Andre could help out. Another tactical person.

Oh and he is married to someone with a great forehand. Between the two of them they might lend some advice.

For now, it is great to see her advancing and playing better.

But the forehand still looks wonky and I am sure that Brad thinks they will have to address it sooner or later.

[stroke]

I think if there was someone they might consult is Carlos Rodriguez. He worked on Henin's forehand and serve using specific models.

Or Brad could call on Agassi. Agassi had a great forehand but it was not his best shot. I know everyone thinks he was balanced but I consider his backhand better than his forehand.

However, he was able to hit a great forehand anyway and I think it was in part because it was so simple.

Gauff's forehand seems long and complicated. Eventually, she will have to address the problem. Maybe Andre could help out. Another tactical person.

Oh and he is married to someone with a great forehand. Between the two of them they might lend some advice.

For now, it is great to see her advancing and playing better.

But the forehand still looks wonky and I am sure that Brad thinks they will have to address it sooner or later.

Certainly agree about Carlos Rodriguez and what he did technically with Henin's forehand. To me, the greatest technical improvement ever in pro tennis. I too loved Agassi's backhand, but I liked his forehand even more. To me it was his best shot. Still a great model. Tsitsipas to me has very similar technique to Andre, but he has added more elbow extension obviously.

[jimlosaltos]

Certainly agree about Carlos Rodriguez and what he did technically with Henin's forehand. To me, the greatest technical improvement ever in pro tennis. I too loved Agassi's backhand, but I liked his forehand even more. To me it was his best shot. Still a great model. Tsitsipas to me has very similar technique to Andre, but he has added more elbow extension obviously.

My guess, Brad does very little with her forehand -- until the offseason.

A big make over in mid-season would undermine the teen's confidence -- and she's winning.

So, it will be, as BG told John, "More shape and margin" for a few months, then recraft it.

[arturohernandez]

My guess, Brad does very little with her forehand -- until the offseason.

A big make over in mid-season would undermine the teen's confidence -- and she's winning.

So, it will be, as BG told John, "More shape and margin" for a few months, then recraft it.

That makes sense. As I watched the final I was amazed at how she just ran everything down and compensated for a loopy forehand. She can compensate with her foot speed for the time being. But as she gets older she will have to address the forehand with a technical change in some way. Otherwise, I cannot imagine she will be able to run like she did in the final for another 6 or 7 years.

We can already see Alcaraz stepping closer to the baseline to return serves. He cannot just use his legs to compensate all the time. Hopefully, Coco can make some kind of meaningful change.

BTW, my uncle a tennis coach in Mexico, told me that he talked to Kei Nishikori's former coach. Apparently, they tried to improve his forehand over and over again but he could not adapt.

The question is whether Coco will be able to adapt to a less extreme grip. Change gets harder as players get older. I am sure that it would have been MUCH easier to correct when she was a child than it is now.

[jimlosaltos]

That makes sense. As I watched the final I was amazed at how she just ran everything down and compensated for a loopy forehand. She can compensate with her foot speed for the time being. But as she gets older she will have to address the forehand with a technical change in some way. Otherwise, I cannot imagine she will be able to run like she did in the final for another 6 or 7 years.

We can already see Alcaraz stepping closer to the baseline to return serves. He cannot just use his legs to compensate all the time. Hopefully, Coco can make some kind of meaningful change.

BTW, my uncle a tennis coach in Mexico, told me that he talked to Kei Nishikori's former coach. Apparently, they tried to improve his forehand over and over again but he could not adapt.

The question is whether Coco will be able to adapt to a less extreme grip. Change gets harder as players get older. I am sure that it would have been MUCH easier to correct when she was a child than it is now.

I have faith in BG. What he's already done (along with Pere Riba) to help Coco is amazing.

Sidebar: In the third set when Coco got broken, I believe it was, Brad looked as if he was going to cry. Quite literally fighting back tears.

Coco cried in the end, happy tears

[jimlosaltos]

WTA article:
The Gilbert playbook In July 2003, paired with Andy Roddick. In two months, he won the US Open. In August 2023, Gilbert paired with Coco Gauff. In less than 6 weeks, she won the US Open.

Excerpt on forehand:

And what of the much-discussed Gauff forehand -- will there be time in the offseason to change her extreme western grip?

“You can’t just change a grip without changing the arc of the swing, so that’s a big change,” he said. “My guess is, from what we’ve seen, we don’t need to.

“When I started with Andy Murray [in 2006], everybody was telling me, ‘He’s just a pusher.’ And yet he wins.

“Everybody mentions the forehand criticism about Coco, and yet she wins. I’m certainly not worried about it in any way, shape or form.”

Also:

How do Gilbert and Riba divide the coaching duties?

“Pere is very detail-oriented,” Gilbert said. “He puts in a lot of structure for the practice and the warmups. And we discuss X’s and O’s -- it’s nice to bounce things off somebody else. A lot of times, we just do quick little bullet points for Coco.”

“The scouting," Gauff said, “I think it’s incredible. He knows basically every player, probably just from commentating, knows how to play them. I think the scouting reports are quite accurate.”

https://www.wtatennis.com/news/3681735/the-gilbert-playbook-how-the-veteran-coach-led-gauff-to-a-us-open-win

[stotty]

“You can’t just change a grip without changing the arc of the swing, so that’s a big change,” he said. “My guess is, from what we’ve seen, we don’t need to.

“Everybody mentions the forehand criticism about Coco, and yet she wins. I’m certainly not worried about it in any way, shape or form.”

I think Coco is the best defender I have ever seen. Comparable to Nadal in her ability to fish balls back from extreme positions. She moves so, so well.

Her forehand held up well against Sabalenka and didn't seem as bad as everyone says it is. I am not that familiar having never watched her that much so far. I was left wondering how her forehand would fair if she was slow-balled or fed junk to it. Where extreme grips fail is they don't provide great feel when it comes to hitting a consistent length, nor are they particularly good at dealing with junk.

What Brad is saying to himself (as coaches do in these situations) about Coco's grip is 'does she get away with it'? His verdict is yes she does so let's leave it. My verdict is, yes, she gets away with it, but at what cost. For me grips are fundamental and there is a price to pay for getting a grip wrong. And I don't care how stratospheric the player is. Sometimes players reach great heights despite coaching rather than because of it, but good coaching would have taken them a little further still.

[jimlosaltos]

I think Coco is the best defender I have ever seen. Comparable to Nadal in her ability to fish balls back from extreme positions. She moves so, so well.

Her forehand held up well against Sabalenka and didn't seem as bad as everyone says it is. I am not that familiar having never watched her that much so far. I was left wondering how her forehand would fair if she was slow-balled or fed junk to it. Where extreme grips fail is they don't provide great feel when it comes to hitting a consistent length, nor are they particularly good at dealing with junk.

What Brad is saying to himself (as coaches do in these situations) about Coco's grip is 'does she get away with it'? His verdict is yes she does so let's leave it. My verdict is, yes, she gets away with it, but at what cost. For me grips are fundamental and there is a price to pay for getting a grip wrong. And I don't care how stratospheric the player is. Sometimes players reach great heights despite coaching rather than because of it, but good coaching would have taken them a little further still.

Yes, her foot speed is tremendous.

My amateur opinion, since you hadn't seen her earlier and I've seen her live a few times.

Coco's forehand swing has, historically, gone all over the place. I'm not qualified to opine on grips. But I can recognize really bad footwork when I see it.

Coco would frequently overrun, then swing all cramped up and compensate by doing strange sort-of reverse forehands. Her off hand would go toward the side wall sometimes, then switch back, even mid stroke, to being pointed at the target.

Brad told her (we learned from John's texting with BG) to shape the ball more and hit with more clearance. That seems -- to my eye -- to have slowed her down a great deal and in turn gotten her forehand under control. That's 90% of the way home IMHO.

[arturohernandez]

Yes, her foot speed is tremendous.

My amateur opinion, since you hadn't seen her earlier and I've seen her live a few times.

Coco's forehand swing has, historically, gone all over the place. I'm not qualified to opine on grips. But I can recognize really bad footwork when I see it.

Coco would frequently overrun, then swing all cramped up and compensate by doing strange sort-of reverse forehands. Her off hand would go toward the side wall sometimes, then switch back, even mid stroke, to being pointed at the target.

Brad told her (we learned from John's texting with BG) to shape the ball more and hit with more clearance. That seems -- to my eye -- to have slowed her down a great deal and in turn gotten her forehand under control. That's 90% of the way home IMHO.

As I noted earlier, apparently Kei tried to change is forehand for a very long time. But it just would never take. BG has been around a long time. He wrote the book on Winning Ugly. So, he figures that she is safe with just a change in tactics. Barty is retired for now. My guess is the slice would be an easy setup for her every time against Coco. But no one right now has a slice like Barty's. So she is safe.

It'll be interesting to see how she develops with BG. He did wonders for Agassi and Roddick. Third time is the third charm!

[jimlosaltos]

From Marca: "Tennis analyst Mark Petchey has recently boldly claimed that Coco Gauff is the best women's athlete to have ever played tennis. ...

"I personally think that Coco Gauff - looking at her right now with the speed that the game is being played at - is the best female women's tennis athlete that we have ever seen," he said.

https://www.marca.com/en/tennis/2023...20d8b45a3.html

[stroke]

I would go with Steffi.