Rather frustrating...

[bottle]

No, no, Phil already gets his hand significantly lower than that, but people here are trying to help him get it even lower, especially Chiro.

What's improved me is getting the elbow up high early. I know of very good players who carry it low and then use the reactive force from legs extension, etc., to carry it up to desired position at the last moment, and in fact I've hit
some good serves this way myself.

The trouble was, I didn't hit them often enough. I guess if a coach were there, a very good one with nothing better to do than watch me all the time, he might say, "Will Bottle get his elbow up high this time? What about the next time?"

Another reason for getting it high early is that you can then focus the reactive force more purely on getting racket tip low during the drop through simultaneously twisting upper arm back and squeezing two halves of the arm together and cocking the hand.

To me, it least, this does feel more like an actual drop. The other way, perfectly valid for some servers, feels more like a winding up.

[llll]

You lost me here... probably because I never played baseball...

continuing with what i mean .
look at this roping video and watch how the ropers keep their hand high above their head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpXXMziKrpw&feature=related

if you watch your serve in slow motion (i wish i could stop frame your video)
i would bet your hand never gets much lower than the top of your ear
sort of like you are "roping" instead of throwing

[llll]

Phil,

Not Larry here. I'll try one more time, and then promise to shut up.

Hopefully, we can agree on one point. That the backswing (from trophy position to bottom of the racquet drop) should coincide with the leg drive. (flexion to extension) All elite server's achieve this relationship. That is, the legs begin to drive, as the racquet begins to enter the back, and concludes (full extension) at the lowest point in the drop. The timing of these two movements, goes along way in loading the shoulder externally and achieving a decent racquet drop. (body rises, as the racquet works downward) This inverse relationship=good for depth of drop and efficient loading of shoulder.

Personally I don't think you have a chance to time these two events with such a low elbow. Again, as the legs start to work against the ground/fire, you have to lift/abduct the arm substantially to even begin to get the arm to work downward. Very, very, difficult to complete the backswing within the time frame of the leg drive with your upper arm angle.

i agree that the leg drive helps the racquet drop and all of your observations and comments are valid .imo as a nonexpert.
but for some of us mortals who dont have perfect knee bends or syncronization of all the kinetic parts of the serve
at least for me trying to deepen my elbow bend and getting my hand lower during the racquet drop phase has helped me.

[10splayer]

Phil,

Not Larry here. I'll try one more time, and then promise to shut up.

Hopefully, we can agree on one point. That the backswing (from trophy position to bottom of the racquet drop) should coincide with the leg drive. (flexion to extension) All elite server's achieve this relationship. That is, the legs begin to drive, as the racquet begins to enter the back, and concludes (full extension) at the lowest point in the drop. The timing of these two movements, goes along way in loading the shoulder externally and achieving a decent racquet drop. (body rises, as the racquet works downward) This inverse relationship=good for depth of drop and efficient loading of shoulder.

Personally I don't think you have a chance to time these two events with such a low elbow. Again, as the legs start to work against the ground/fire, you have to lift/abduct the arm substantially to even begin to get the arm to work downward. Very, very, difficult to complete the backswing within the time frame of the leg drive with your upper arm angle.

[gzhpcu]

looking at your video again i think when you pause and the start up again
you sort of "flick" or lasso the racquet high hand position at the ball instead of throwing where the hand gets lower ie better racquet drop.

another way to think of it is a second baseman with the ball on his ear throwing to first base. little racquet drop.


center fielder throwing to home plate deep racquet drop.
i hope i have explained myself.
i hope the rest of you dont think im crazy

You lost me here... probably because I never played baseball...

[tennisplayer]

I've always had a problem with shoulder abduction (if that's the right word). I don't think too much abduction is good - it can cause rotator cuff problems. If the elbow gets high, it should be because of the cartwheeling motion, where the left shoulder starts off higher than the right (for a righty), and ends up lower than the right shoulder at the top of the serve motion. At this point, the upper arm is in line with the shoulders, or almost, but the elbow looks high because of the shoulder slant. Not sure if I am making myself clear. My elbow doesn't get too high these days, but that's because I have lost a lot of flexibility over the years...

[gzhpcu]

Thanks larry, I go out and try out your suggestions... certainly agree about getting the left arm up more, already have that one on the top of my list...

P.S. sorry about getting mixed up with the names...

[llll]

one more thing
your left arm needs to be up higher to get a better shoulder tilt
in directly i think this will also help

[llll]

looking at your video again i think when you pause and the start up again
you sort of "flick" or lasso the racquet high hand position at the ball instead of throwing where the hand gets lower ie better racquet drop.

another way to think of it is a second baseman with the ball on his ear throwing to first base. little racquet drop.


center fielder throwing to home plate deep racquet drop.
i hope i have explained myself.
i hope the rest of you dont think im crazy

[llll]

for me sometimes i get a poor racquet drop because my swing is more like trying to lasso(sp) with a rope rather than a throw
feeling my hand drop or elbow bend as when im throwing really has helped me

[llll]

phil this is my first post on this (im larry10s not 10splayer),
heres my 2 cents this has helped me.
first video your self throwing a ball
see how much your forearm and upper arm collapse(get close together....elbow bend) and how much or deep a drop you can do.
that will prove to you you have the flexibility for a better racquet drop.
second stand on the baseline and face the fence!!!!
toss the ball and "throw the racquet at the ball""
remember you are not "serving"(no hitch to your motion like you do now (the pause)
try to feel the deep elbow bend
revideo yourself doing this drill facing the fence see if your drop has improved
if it does ill go to part 2
if not i tried to help you
larry

[John Yandell]

Also remember that Novak changed his serve all around and not for the better there for quite a while. Now he's back to the more classic windup he had before or is closer and not with so much low elbow bend from what I can see.

Regarding our friend Phil, that backswing while loose in the hand looks quick and uneven in tempo. I'd like to see big windmill circle swings with the arm as the basis for changing the tempo.

[bman]

Nobody even remotely close to 65 years of age could arch their back like Djokovic does and serve decently. Even pros change as they lose flexibility as they age. Agassi is a prime example. His shoulders were practically perpendicular to the ground through 1995; in the second half of his career, the tilt was about halfway between being perpendicular and parallel to the ground.

[gzhpcu]

As you attempt the r/drop, are you slackening the grip at the heel of the hand to make entry into the r/drop easier? If not, try it, it might help.

At the beginning at least the grip is loose...



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maybe I tighten up during the trophy pose...

Thanks anyway to all for the suggestions...

[stotty]

As you attempt the r/drop, are you slackening the grip at the heel of the hand to make entry into the r/drop easier? If not, try it, it might help.

Elbow does look low....can't be sure without a seeing slomo clip from the side. The elbow can be low so long as it is linear to the shoulders...some players are steeper than others with regards to their ALM. But you're knowledgeable and know all this?! A slomo side view will reveal all.

Just my opinion this, others may disagree: Djorko isn't a good example and has an awful serve for a top player. His second serve is dire due to that low elbow...seen him several times live... saw him play Taylor Dent at Wimbledon 2010.