Rather frustrating...

[gzhpcu]

tennis_chiro
the position you are referring to is that the racquet gets to the right side of the body (almost parrallel)as it goes up to contact in servers who get a good racquet drop.
for those that dont the racquet goes up to contact more diagonally across their back.
is that correct????
thats sort of how i understand it

Isn't this what John calls the "pro drop"?

[tennis_chiro]

Close, but not quite

Thanks don...
You mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyijtStZvo

Todd has Novak practice swing using two rackets...

Using two rackets like that is a great way to loosen up your shoulder and warm up your arm. It is also useful in the move of the racket head I am talking about. But Todd should have him imitating an actual hitting action as the racket head goes up to the ball (internal rotation) so the face of the racket is facing in the right direction at the actual area of contact.

But you can see the exaggerated move of Novak's racket off to the right as it comes around before it goes up.

It works a little better with an actual weight on a racket so you can use your normal grip.

don

[llll]

tennis_chiro
the position you are referring to is that the racquet gets to the right side of the body (almost parrallel)as it goes up to contact in servers who get a good racquet drop.
for those that dont the racquet goes up to contact more diagonally across their back.
is that correct????
thats sort of how i understand it

[gzhpcu]

Also, using a racket with a weighted head is also very effective in emphasizing this effect...just for a practice swing.
don

Thanks don...
You mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyijtStZvo

Todd has Novak practice swing using two rackets...

[tennis_chiro]

Six more clicks

Thanks Don.

So I tried making a comparison:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and Pete


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I see the butt cap pointing to the ball position. What I still have difficulty understanding is: do you get automatically into this position by just being very loose, or, do you, at first have to make a conscious effort? Because I really think I have a loose grip but still don't manage to get there...

Phil,
I'm really not that flexible anymore, so my drop is a little shallow. But you need to take the still of Sampras 6 or 7 clicks past the spot you have chosen here. Then I think you will see the difference. You are accelerating up before you get to that point. Not only should the butt of the racket point at the ball; it should also be pointing in the general direction, or at least in the plane formed by these three points:butt cap, ball and target...approximately. Your racket is pointed way off to the right of the target (as is Pete's in the picture, but 6 clicks later it is positioned in the plane I have just described). What I wanted you to see in my clumsy videos was the way the head of the racket swings over to this position. It won't do that because you bend your arm more. It happens because the momentum of the drop even as you begin to go up swings the head over there.

That's the difference you are looking for. Find someone with a Casio ExLim Camera and they can catch you at 200 or more frames per second and you will see it.

Also, using a racket with a weighted head is also very effective in emphasizing this effect...just for a practice swing.
don

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Don.

So I tried making a comparison:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and Pete


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I see the butt cap pointing to the ball position. What I still have difficulty understanding is: do you get automatically into this position by just being very loose, or, do you, at first have to make a conscious effort? Because I really think I have a loose grip but still don't manage to get there...

[tennis_chiro]

I forgot

I forgot to mention you should compare your very first picture in post number 4. It shows you not getting to the position I was talking about.
don

[tennis_chiro]

I didn't really say that

No, no, Phil already gets his hand significantly lower than that, but people here are trying to help him get it even lower, especially Chiro.

Phil,

I finally got the stuff I wanted to show you posted on youtube. In fact, I don't think the key for you is getting a deeper drop. Declining flexibility kind of precludes that. But if you go to John's article in Advanced Tennis: Pete Sampras: New Filming Protocols Classic Motions in Advanced Tennis and go to the last Quicktime Video at the bottom of the article and download it

https://www.tennisplayer.net/article...assic-motions/

you can go about 7 seconds into that clip and see that Pete's arm is not bent all that much. But look at the way the racket head comes around in the next few frames to line up the butt of the racket with the ball and the target while it is still pretty low. That is the key that will get you the power you are looking for.

Here is a clip of what I am talking about specifically with the drop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_CRdVLnp4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is a longer version that goes with the longer post I put up at the very beginning of this thread. The comments on youtube help explain what I am getting at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb70sir9BZw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

To better understand what I was talking about in the aforementioned long post, check the following two clips. I had the camera set for high speed by mistake and it didn't record the audio narration I was giving, but if you read the post, you will understand what I am getting at.

First for the regular Figure 8 drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaS-qtQWym4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Then for the "feet together forward" Figure 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22IeFCPYOd0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Phil, you have gotten a lot of very good tips here in this thread, I think partly because we appreciate all the good stuff you put up here. I hope they help you get that snap back in your serve.

good luck,
don

[llll]

Here a shot of my trying to get a drop just going through the motion:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

As you can see, am no longer very flexible...

look at how deep you got
look how deep you get on your serve
you can get deeper
we all cant get a roddick drop\
but we can maximise what we can do

[gzhpcu]

Here a shot of my trying to get a drop just going through the motion:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

As you can see, am no longer very flexible...

[gzhpcu]

phil what about the video of your throwing a ball???
actually try taking a video of you trying to throw a racquet as far as you can??
that would be revealing


did you try my "drills"???
if you read bottles next to last paragraph he also describes the forearm and upper arm coming closer together or increased elbow bend

Will try next week to video my throwing a ball... can't with the racket, because I don't have an old racket...

[10splayer]

Here is my trophy:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
and my drop:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I think I do have my leg extension timed with my racket drop. OK, I don't use my legs that much, but still...

You don't have to shut up.. All comments are helpful and welcome...

In the first caption, the racquet is not ready to enter the back. Not even close. You still are going to have to lift the arm significantly to get it to go downward. With your limited leg action, what do you think will be compromised? Perhaps the depth of the drop?

[llll]

phil what about the video of your throwing a ball???
actually try taking a video of you trying to throw a racquet as far as you can??
that would be revealing


did you try my "drills"???
if you read bottles next to last paragraph he also describes the forearm and upper arm coming closer together or increased elbow bend

[gzhpcu]

No, no, Phil already gets his hand significantly lower than that, but people here are trying to help him get it even lower, especially Chiro.

What's improved me is getting the elbow up high early. I know of very good players who carry it low and then use the reactive force from legs extension, etc., to carry it up to desired position at the last moment, and in fact I've hit
some good serves this way myself.

The trouble was, I didn't hit them often enough. I guess if a coach were there, a very good one with nothing better to do than watch me all the time, he might say, "Will Bottle get his elbow up high this time? What about the next time?"

Another reason for getting it high early is that you can then focus the reactive force more purely on getting racket tip low during the drop through simultaneously twisting upper arm back and squeezing two halves of the arm together and cocking the hand.

To me, it least, this does feel more like an actual drop. The other way, perfectly valid for some servers, feels more like a winding up.

Will try getting the elbow up higher...thanks...

[gzhpcu]

Phil,

Not Larry here. I'll try one more time, and then promise to shut up.

Hopefully, we can agree on one point. That the backswing (from trophy position to bottom of the racquet drop) should coincide with the leg drive. (flexion to extension) All elite server's achieve this relationship. That is, the legs begin to drive, as the racquet begins to enter the back, and concludes (full extension) at the lowest point in the drop. The timing of these two movements, goes along way in loading the shoulder externally and achieving a decent racquet drop. (body rises, as the racquet works downward) This inverse relationship=good for depth of drop and efficient loading of shoulder.

Personally I don't think you have a chance to time these two events with such a low elbow. Again, as the legs start to work against the ground/fire, you have to lift/abduct the arm substantially to even begin to get the arm to work downward. Very, very, difficult to complete the backswing within the time frame of the leg drive with your upper arm angle.

Here is my trophy:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
and my drop:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I think I do have my leg extension timed with my racket drop. OK, I don't use my legs that much, but still...

You don't have to shut up.. All comments are helpful and welcome...