My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[doctorhl]

Merry Christmas DB and to all of you guys as well.

[glacierguy]

Thanks and Happy Christmas don_budge. I identify with the line in your original sign off, where you say you "will .... dedicate my efforts to all of the classic tennis players of the past". Now if I could do that, I would be content.

[stroke]

Merry Christmas DB and all.

[don_budge]

From February 2012

In Conclusion...The Continental Grips of John McEnroe

My journey into the continental gripped game as best exemplified and the latest example by the great American tennis player John McEnroe is now over. For the time being. At least as far as any more posting on the forum. For the meantime. I reserve the right to change my mind. I have reposted my thoughts and the video clips for my convenience and for yours if you find them of any interest. Now these threads can drift into obscurity with the rest of the words that I have chosen to write to you. To all of you...my good fellows and ladies too.

The journey was based upon a collage of comments, threads and posts that were viewed here on tennisplayer.net. Wilander vs. McEnroe, stroke, Does McEnroe Flip?, Karsten Popp...and on and on and on. It sort of morphed into a dream...even a hallucination at times. Connect the dots...seek the meaning of life. You will find that it is simple and simply put. Do your best. For yourself and by others. Have a little respect. For the past. For your elders. For life in general. Don't seek the path of least resistance...go for the one that is less travelled. Don't let the other guy outwork you. Don't let the other guy outthink you. Be aware!

I will continue to pursue playing tennis in this continental gripped manner and dedicate my efforts to all of the classic tennis players of the past. And to the great teachers of the past. Before the days of virtual reality...and virtual morality (my term). Before the days of "modern tennis". And to bottle. Keep an open mind everyone! Be free! Or die! I think it was stroke who opined that this manner of playing the game was best for seniors and I am wondering with the results that I have gotten if this style might not be revived except for the fact that conventional wisdom frowns upon it and from this point forwards there is only one way to play the modern game of tennis. Of course with all of the engineering of equipment, court surfaces and the brain washing with the politically correct mentality, it is a hard sell to think differently.

Well the herd is going one way and I the other. Nothing new under the sun...as I look out on the Swedish country side from my office window...like Johnny Depp in the The Secret Window. A winter's day or a winter's night. Depending upon where you are. I am here and you are there. Over and out...from yours truly...don_budge.

Thank you glacierguy...stroke and doctorhl. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Over and out. Again. Yours truly...don_budge.

[don_budge]

1984 U. S. Open Men's Final...John McEnroe vs. Ivan Lendl

https://youtu.be/dSU5_XvDVfo

McEnroe SABR

The day before this epic match I saw Lendl narrowly edge Pat Cash in five sets and watched John McEnroe take down Jimmy Connors in another five set tussle. The tennis was unbelievable...the first time in tennis history that all four men's semifinalists used oversized graphite racquets in a Grand Slam tournament. The great tennis journalist Bud Collins maintained that this was the greatest tennis ever. Martina Navratilova defeated Chris Evert in the best women's match that I have ever personally witnessed in three close sets. The tennis was deceptive to the untrained eye but I was in the eye of the storm during those times. It was partly due to the racquets...not that any of the participants deserved any less praise for their superlative efforts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsKqPPPeqkU

In the final McEnroe is repeatedly using the SABR...following his service return to the net behind the Lendl serve. An unbelievable tactic in those days. McEnroe in his finest hour. Straddling two eras of tennis. The wooden racquet/Classic era and the big racquet/Modern era. Truly a once in a life time accomplishment. His record in 1984 has been unmatched to this day in a field of incredibly deep tennis world.

stroke made a couple of interesting contributions to this thread and I believe it was he that suggested that the McEnroe style of play would be advantageous as a player aged. It's an interesting observation for the very reasons glacierguy is making his tactical decision to play this type of game. Hug the baseline. Get on top of the ball early taking it on the rise. Shorter backswing using the speed of the opponents shots back at them. Clean strikes and looking for the first opportunity to end things at the net. What a great match this was looking back in hindsight. He manhandled Lendl...something that didn't happen very often.

[doctorhl]

https://youtu.be/dSU5_XvDVfo

McEnroe SABR

Thanks so much for posting this. If you are successful one time( even in singles), it plays with their head!

[stroke]

https://youtu.be/dSU5_XvDVfo

McEnroe SABR

[glacierguy]

Word of the day...it's dazzling. Especially in the context. A word wizard.

aplomb...self-confidence or assurance, especially in a demanding situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4liRiHs5taI

Here's a real wizard for you glacierguy. Changing grips is often a path for self annihilation in such endeavors as tennis or golf. Even sword play. You want to cut your own throat...change grips. That is a path of no return. After a switch, sometimes the old comfy grip never quite feels the same. I watched my old tennis doubles partner go through such a thing. He was stuck with something resembling continental...but strange to say it worked for him.

Here's the thing. Here is the crux of your dillema on the forehand. It is the sword of McEnroe...you see. Both of these clown/wizards made their living going forwards. A ball in the mid court is an invitation to go to the net. That is what my old tennis coach taught me. He and Tilden, Hopman and all the rest. Go forwards young man. Instead of hitting a winner...play it smart. Play the percentages and play an approach shot. A shot that is designed to open up the court for you to volley. At most two volleys.

In your case the conversation can be one of technique until the cows come home. But try the path of least resistance and make it a tactical problem. You are sort of running in the outside lane here. Conventional wisdom is going to tell you to change your grip. But is that the wise thing to do at this point in the game. Get on top of the mid court ball early. Before it gets too high out of your wheel house. Crowd your opponent and take a bit of time away from him. Get on top of the net. It's a gamble. Look at McEnroe and Nastase. A fool's mission? I don't think so.

This continental grip game was designed to go forwards. Engineered to play the whole court. Force your opponent to play the entire court. Make him play your game. Slay him with a thousand cuts...at least two or three per point. It will add up to thousand by the time you are done with him.

Nastase was a hero in my house. He was the embodiment of the phrase "men wanted to be him, and women wanted to be with him". Irresistible.

[stroke]

McEnroe was no doubt a genius as a tennis player. Well into his 50's, he competed very well on the Senior tour against players sometimes 15 or so years younger. Wilander once said it best to me, saying "Mac can make you feel real stupid out there". He did not change his continental grip for either side, and could hit topspin off it off both sides, almost stand alone doing it with that grip on the forehand. Taking the ball early, he was top shelf, Fed like, once again, his grip a big reason. He was the best volleyer ever. He invented the SABR, not Fed. Drop shots off both sides, best ever. His slice backhand, with his truncated motion, was ahead of his time.

[glacierguy]

don_budge, I am convinced. You are right, I need to embrace what I have and use it to maximum effect. My game was based upon exactly what you describe - always advancing to the net, and bang, one or two volleys to finish. This recent video experience has been odd though. As I mentioned before, after a few years of being enlightened by TennisPlayer on the techniques of the modern game, I was under the impression that I had incorporated some elements into my forehand. I hadn't! The mind plays tricks. Having studied the recent videos (of me), read your posts on McEnroe and watched some older TennisPlayer video, I now know I should stick with the continental gripped forehand and the game that comes with it - press the net.

One of your comments struck home - "you can hit with sidespin". Indeed I can. I have had opponents at the end of matches say they were completely beaten by my inside out forehands that I allow to slide off the face of the racquet and skid out into the tramlines at zero altitude.

So, I shall learn to love the continental, and save more modern techniques for my backhand and serve.

Thank you so much for helping me clear the fog and see to the heart of the matter.

I am about to post some of yesterday's forehands on the other thread, which whilst definitely continental, have some more extension through the line of the ball (I think!).

[don_budge]

On this video, scroll to around 66. Place your finger on the red dot and roll it slightly to the right, back and forth. Your are trying to toggle back from loading at 66.0 and contact at 66.6( having a wheel or mouse that toggles one frame at a time is helpful). Go to John's archives and try to find the same frames for Del Potro or Federer on neutral stances with their forehand. Many players have the racket tip pointed a little more forward ( higher elbow as a result) which will give a little more flip. They also seem to have a wider stance which allows a rotational swing with less forward weight shift. The narrow stance seems to be focused on a larger forward weight shift for a more linear swing. I am not sure if the footwork to setup to load for a rotational swing, but I sure gained some power on both the fh and bh when I made the switch. Your stroke is so nice, only a small tweak. The best thing is to use John's process of side by side video comparison and reinforcement with visual and kinesthetic imaging.

Linear versus rotational? Not so sure. When I first saw the Glacier Forehand I immediately thought the same thing from my very first, initial impression. But something was out of whack. It didn't add up. The eye doesn't lie. It was in the grip. I immediately message GG and he confirmed...it was continental Baby. The game changer. Just throw modern tennis "conventional" wisdom out the window. Chuck it out the window with yesterday's garbage. Much as I did ten years ago when I started this threat. When the forum was really a forum. Ahhh...yesterday. Phil used to accuse me of living in the past. gzhpcu he used to call himself. I wonder what happened to Phil. Another great guy who used to love to butt heads with little old don_budge. But you see the same sort of thing in this thread. I know it is all my doing too. I seem to revel being on the outside...looking in. Much as I am doing these days. I keep an eye on things. But frankly...there has been very little to say. Part of it is that Roger has left the stadium. But most of it...well, better to not get started. I feel bad for JY. The fabulous has turned to mundane.

glacierguy...are you still there? I know I'm not participating in your thread. Much as I would like to. But don_budge is only a specter here on the forum. But even so...there is just one little thread that keeps my head in the game. In the game of tennis. glacierguy isn't the new breed that has taken over here. Something makes me want to help. As I did for the last ten years.

As I was saying...when I first saw the initiation of your forehand backswing something inside of me anticipated the backswing to actually go down instead of in a loop. Once the cat was out of the bag and the grip was confirmed as continental I knew why. I immediately summoned this thread from the dustbin of tennisplayer memories and lo and behold there it was. Johnny Bad Boy. Your hero and mine as well. The advice? Try the low backswing of McEnroe with your continental grip. Move forwards on the ball and crowd that baseline. TAKE IT ON THE RISE WHENEVER YOU CAN. That midcourt ball is an invitation to the net...not an invitation to make a mashed potato out of the ball. You can do so many things with a grip like that. You can hit the ball with sidespin...even underspin. You can hit the ball short and angled. You can reach the deep part of the court because the lack of topspin doesn't bring the ball down. You can dropshot. You can volley. I know...I know. It means trashing conventional wisdom. It goes against the grain. Right up your alley...glacierguy. You know the score.

The looping backswing keeps you pinned deep behind the baseline. Particularly with the "dreaded" continental grip. Bill Tilden advised that it is tough to play the high ball with such a grip. Right where the opposition wants you. Never give your opponent the shot he likes to hit. From "The Art of War" or Bill Tilden's "Match Play and the Spin of the Ball" comes the basis of your tactics. Take a look at each one of the shots and the explanation that I wrote about the video. A little story about each shot from the John McEnroe repetoire. Trust me...he had many, many more. Drop shot and lob for goodness sakes! Throw everything at the opponent including the kitchen sink. One thing more...always one more thing isn't it? Now John Yandell gives the viewer of this library of tennis videos the option of switching the view of the left handed McEnroe to a right handed McEnroe. This change in your backswing changes the entire paradigm of your game. Instead of the baseline labrador retriever you morph into stealth attack mode. Give it a whirl. Or not. You are the captain glacierguy. I am just a voice in the wilderness. Soon to disappear entirely. But you never know where I might pop up next.

[don_budge]

My main problem is putting away mid-court balls on the forehand. It's extremely frustrating to get on top in the rally, force a weak return, and then fail to put it away. Drives me nuts.

Since I'm not up for changing grip, I will endeavour to: get more left arm extension and coil, lower wider base, contact more in front with better hitting arm extension through line of shot. By tomorrow. Which is when I think I'll video again.

I'm glad you quite like my backhand, it always used to be my better shot, but has taken longer to reappear after my layoff.

Word of the day...it's dazzling. Especially in the context. A word wizard.

aplomb...self-confidence or assurance, especially in a demanding situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4liRiHs5taI

Here's a real wizard for you glacierguy. Changing grips is often a path for self annihilation in such endeavors as tennis or golf. Even sword play. You want to cut your own throat...change grips. That is a path of no return. After a switch, sometimes the old comfy grip never quite feels the same. I watched my old tennis doubles partner go through such a thing. He was stuck with something resembling continental...but strange to say it worked for him.

Here's the thing. Here is the crux of your dillema on the forehand. It is the sword of McEnroe...you see. Both of these clown/wizards made their living going forwards. A ball in the mid court is an invitation to go to the net. That is what my old tennis coach taught me. He and Tilden, Hopman and all the rest. Go forwards young man. Instead of hitting a winner...play it smart. Play the percentages and play an approach shot. A shot that is designed to open up the court for you to volley. At most two volleys.

In your case the conversation can be one of technique until the cows come home. But try the path of least resistance and make it a tactical problem. You are sort of running in the outside lane here. Conventional wisdom is going to tell you to change your grip. But is that the wise thing to do at this point in the game. Get on top of the mid court ball early. Before it gets too high out of your wheel house. Crowd your opponent and take a bit of time away from him. Get on top of the net. It's a gamble. Look at McEnroe and Nastase. A fool's mission? I don't think so.

This continental grip game was designed to go forwards. Engineered to play the whole court. Force your opponent to play the entire court. Make him play your game. Slay him with a thousand cuts...at least two or three per point. It will add up to thousand by the time you are done with him.

[don_budge]

Thanks so much for digging up this thread - that is some serious analysis of my idol from teenage years. And you're right, the quality of other contributors is impressive and stimulating.

I think you've answered the question of where my initial low, lazy-looking racquet take back comes from - way back from the 80s! I can't shake it off. I thought I was incorporating some modern elements learnt from TennisPlayer in my forehand whilst sticking with a continental grip, but the video evidence suggests it's still stuck in the 80s and hasn't evolved a jot.

At least now you all know that my handle glacierguy is accurate - I fell into a glacier crevass sometime in the early 80s and popped out at the bottom 30+ years later playing throwback tennis.

To cement the link, if the video was a little crisper, you would see that I'm wearing a BORG t-shirt, of which I have many, and which remind me of the old days.

You are very welcome glacierguy. Yeah...what's in a name? We are both throwbacks from another era and we both know it. You know what that makes us? Aware. We were congnizant before all of the new normal became standard issue. So be it.

It was ten years ago as we type on our keyboards that I wrote up this thread. I worked pretty hard on it apparently. As in everything else I do...if I am interested...I dug into it to read all that I could. Mostly I look for things between the lines...if you know what I mean and I suspect you do. Ten years...a lot of change in ten years. Things are changing so fast these days. Enough change in the last ten years compared to what happened in the twenty years before that. Thirty years even. Actually we have no idea. We are not told. We can only speculate.

When I saw your video I knew I had to make an appearance. It is the end of the year. For at least ten years I wrote enough on this forum to write a book entitled "The Year in Tennis 2011" and so forth. Your strokes are retrograde for sure and it all comes out in the discussion in this thread. Nearly to a man the other posters were focused on correcting me or trying to trot out their take on the McEnroe game as some kind of expert. Except for bottle...ironically enough. Whatever happened to bottle in the end...I can only hope for the best but it didn't look promising. But that was quite ok with me as I was totally unfazed or distracted about what it was that I set out to do. I tried to capture the essence of McEnroe on the tennis court. On the forehand side. I think that I did. I proceeded to do the same thing on the backhand side. I read a book that was called "Being John McEnroe"...I think you should too.

But this wasn't just a vanity post to dig up an example of my writing. Although the possiblility remains that a certain percentage of it was. I am proud of this work as I wrote it. Ten years later. It helps me to mark the years and analyse my very own development. To analyse my own performance. I am more critical of myself than anyone or anything else. It is where I get my practice. But here's the thing as it relates to you. Your game is retro...in retrospect. Isn't it? When I first saw your video and saw the backhand I thought to myself...not half bad. In fact...pretty damn good. Maybe tinker with the feet just a bit. Ala McEnroe. One of the glaring things that came out of the individual stroke videos was the meticulous footwork. Just a tinker. The stroke is really, really good. Shoulder down to hit up into the drive and shoulder up to drive down into the slice. That's my motto on the backhand. The Don Budge backhand in my model. The slice would be the key to your game. The tactical stroke in your game. To play defence with offence in mind.

So it comes down to the forehand. When I first saw yours I didn't realize that it was the "dreaded" Continental grip. There were a couple of forum posters that really believed that I was some sort of apostate for exploring the McEnroe forehand in 2012 as if it were some sort of blasphemy on the modern game of tennis. My position wasn't so much an argument for either for or against. My position was one of curiosity. I even tried to play that way myself. It was exciting running in the outside lane. People think you are insane. Right in my wheel house. When I first saw your forehand I was thinking of tinkering with the backswing and making it look "Federesque". But after I messaged you and you confirmed it was indeed Continental, I dug up this thread and read it from beginning to end. My conclusion? Go the full McEnroe glacierguy. Instead of looping the backswing back, let that racquet head drop like Johnny Bad Boy does. Give it a whirl. How does that feel? Pretty damn good I suspect. Work on those three lines...feet, shoulders and racquet. Work on getting those lines all set up and perfect on each individual shot and play the ball strategically and tacticly just like our hero did in his battles with not only his opponents...but with himself. He drove himself nuts trying to get those lines perfect each and every time. He amused us with his antics in the process. It was amusing if you understood what it like to be John McEnroe in the 1980's...such a long, long time ago. I think it is just great that here we are forty years later and there is at least one guy left in that paradigm...you. Throw in some antics while you are working at it glacierguy. Just for laughs. It's probably a little out of your wheelhouse. You seem like a much more sensible fellow that the obsessed, compulsive McEnroe.

So back at you glacierguy. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

[glacierguy]

Thanks so much for digging up this thread - that is some serious analysis of my idol from teenage years. And you're right, the quality of other contributors is impressive and stimulating.

I think you've answered the question of where my initial low, lazy-looking racquet take back comes from - way back from the 80s! I can't shake it off. I thought I was incorporating some modern elements learnt from TennisPlayer in my forehand whilst sticking with a continental grip, but the video evidence suggests it's still stuck in the 80s and hasn't evolved a jot.

At least now you all know that my handle glacierguy is accurate - I fell into a glacier crevass sometime in the early 80s and popped out at the bottom 30+ years later playing throwback tennis.

To cement the link, if the video was a little crisper, you would see that I'm wearing a BORG t-shirt, of which I have many, and which remind me of the old days.

[don_budge]

I finally took some video of groundstrokes yesterday. Quality is not great because of indoor lighting, but you can see what's going on. There's just one backhand followed by one forehand (they're all pretty much the same). It's at 240fps at 1/8th speed from an iPhone using Hudl app (no longer available). Posted it because everyone likes picking apart strokes don't they? Any comments welcomed.

Good stuff glacierguy! Regards the backhand...very nice. Looking at the point where you are transitioning from backswing to forwards swing...excellent creation of the three lines from the don_budge school of stroke production. The line of the shoulders...the line of the racquet and the line of the feet (from the end of the toes). The one observation that I have is if you had taken one half step to get a bit closer to the shot then you could have stepped some degrees more towards the net which enables you to transfer more energy in that direction. It appears that the line that you create with your feet might be approximately 15 to 20 degrees relative to the baseline, while the lines of your racquet and shoulders appears to be a nice 45 degrees. It cannot always be perfect...but the better you place your feet the better you get your ASS (hips) in position. This is one of the most fundamental keys to balance, transfer of energy and effectiveness of strokes. 45 degrees would be a nice placement of the feet. You see that your hips are about 45 degrees relative to the net as it is...it would be interesting if you would submit a shot where you are placing your feet at a similar angle. I notice that the back foot comes up and around in order to keep your balance.

Which brings us to the forehand. Oh my goodness...it's a continental gripped forehand. When I first looked at the video...I started to react to it from the "Living Proof of Roger Federer" part of my tennis teaching paradigm. But a part of me remembered something deep from my past life as a tennis teaching professional. Eureka! It was my experiment and analysis of the John McEnroe forehand. Anyways...it was a good excuse to dig up this thread from the past. At least you will find it interesting. I pretty much read it through without looking at each individual video, which I analysed individually. I'm not so sure that your forehand is such a liability as when I first saw it. It might indeed be a very viable weapon in your arsenal, if used tactically judiciously.

This thread brings back old memories at any rate. Some of the old players on this forum...bottle, 10splayer, tennis_chiro. What great fun it was. An incredible thread really. My ideas fly in the face of conventional wisdom. It was obvious to me at the time. But I couldn't resist. The temptation was too great. I loved the play and wizardry of John McEnroe when I was young and competitive. At any rate...it's amusing. It makes me smile. Remembering when I was don_budge.