My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[stotty]

McEnroe/Agassi

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

You make a couple of nice observations but I sort of wonder if you have some preconceived notion that McEnroe is not swinging at his forehand.

I feel this thread could go on forever. There is always something to say in it...always something to add. What an enigma McEnroe is.

I wouldn’t for one moment suggest that McEnroe wasn’t swinging at the ball with velocity. He did. It’s just that comparatively speaking it’s a lot less violent than the typical ATP forehand of today. Some of his forehands were hit hard, some were steered and guided with great timing and feel. He had it all. And never would I suggest his forehand was weak in any way...just unusual.

Matts Willander’s comments about the difficulty of playing McEnroe ring very true with me.

In 1974 Connors slaughtered Rosewall at Wimbledon losing just a handful of games. In 1984 Connors had the same done to him on the same court by McEnroe. In 1992 it looked for all the world like Agassi would behead McEnroe in the same way. Deja vu. Hang around too long and this is what happens. You have to know when you’re finished. Boxers never know when their finished. No one in their corner ever tells them while there is still money to be made. In the end they get humiliated. It’s a cruel game boxing. A game of dirty money and exploitation.

But McEnroe did okay against Agassi. Sure he lost in straight sets, but he made himself so difficult to play against, so hard to get pace against, so hard to get hold of by the scruff of the neck. I never once saw McEnroe get slaughtered. He always had something in the bag to counter a pending annihilation, even in his later years.

[bottle]

A nice discussion that maligns no one (except for them and them and them). What I most like is that this particular video gives us ballpark indication of where the vigorous swing begins. The racket has gone down and up and then slanted in (in a smaller final move of preparation than mine but mine is about to get smaller, too). The body then gets out of the way as racket descends a bit more. And roll characterizes power part without being the whole of it.

[don_budge]

Balance...Young Legs, Rolling Wrists and Forearms

One notable key to McEnroe's success lies in the stillness of his upper body. His upper body remains vertical, still, and "calm" throughout the stroke. The body acts as a post while the shoulder and upper arm do the guiding and steering, made possible and underpinned by his great set up and wonderful balance.

Stillness can equate to exquisite timing. McEnroe and Mecir were equally "still" players and two of the best timers of a ball you will ever see.

Contrary to the ATP forehand which unleashes itself following a series of critical events, McEnroe's forehand is guided and caressed, not so much an explosion, more a guided missile.

One of the key advantages of a forehand like McEnroe's (or Connors come to think of it) is there are no wild misses. Forehands without flip are simple and reliable and more accurate...just not so powerful...you can't have everything.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

You make a couple of nice observations but I sort of wonder if you have some preconceived notion that McEnroe is not swinging at his forehand. Perhaps that is only because of your use of the terms "guided" and "caressed". I see that he is swinging. I like your use of the two names McEnroe and Mecir in the same vein...both continental gripped forehands (?) and both extremely capable of taking the ball early and on the rise...which to a large degree compensates for any perceived lack of “power”. What is power anyways? Power is control over your opponent in the end.

Here in FH Center CourtLevel Rear1 at 35 clicks into the video snapshot McEnroe takes his familiar stance to initiate his swing. Just a couple of comments here for any beginner to advanced tennis player. Note how he is "sitting" into his hindquarters and how his racquet and his shoulders are on virtually the same line. Note also that his feet are virtually on the same line as his shoulders and racquet. This is what I call perfect "get in position" position. Great players manage this position more often than lesser players on a greater percentage of their shots.

Now click ahead to frame 40 and you will notice that McEnroe's shoulders have cleared the way and made room for his arm and racquet to begin swinging on the inside path in front of his body. At frame 42 his racquet has impacted with the ball and at frame 46 his racquet reappears on the other side of his body at the end of his swing and the completion of his follow through. Between frames and 40 and 46 McEnroe's arm and racquet have swung through the complete path of his stroke and it is not a long distance if you compare it to todays long ATP forehand swings. But in no way does that impliy that he is caressing the ball. He has applied all of the levers and he has hit it on the screws. The path of his racquet is perhaps more efficiently delivering the payload into the ball without any superfluous motion. I liken it to tennis_chiro's "Bruce Lee's one inch punch" reference.

Power in today's tennis has been overemphasized due to a number of engineering marvels created by the interfering and meddling hand of the governing bodies of tennis. Tennis shots historically are judged on their effectiveness in terms of power, placement and spin. Equal parts. We saw the turn of the worm in the 1984 Wimbledon Finals that was critiqued by yours truly in my Traditional Thoughts about Tennis thread. In that final Jimmy Connors was virtually overwhelmed by the power of the McEnroe game...chiefly by the serve and the forehand. It was unheard of to overpower Jimmy Connors in those days all things being equal.

Just like the backhand stroke of John McEnroe...the objectives were never to simply overpower which is sort of a thoughtless and barbaric tactic traditionally and rarely culminated in any significant championships. But of course the equipment and court surface have changed all of that. The McEnroe game was cerebral and acutely engaged with his opponents strengths and weaknesses. He dissected and surgically eliminated his competition...much as his success in the doubles game highlights this as well. Perhaps there have not been any rivals to him when you consider the singles and doubles success of John McEnroe. I have never heard in any critique of the McEnroe game that his forehand was some kind of liability.

Did you see what Agassi did to Mc. recently? Killed him, and Mc was left defending, and watching Ag. fh go by him. Way more rpm/pace. Ag. was gloating, and pursing his lips on each fh winner.

But all that being said...to mention John McEnroe and Andre Agassi in the same breath in the year 2013 when discussing the relative merits to any given stroke...you would be remiss not to mention that there is a 12 year age difference between the two. The difference in 54 year old legs and 42 year old legs is significant. If you cannot get your legs under you for any given shot...of course you are going to see a distorted view of things through your own eyes if you fail to take that little fun fact into account.

On another note, McEnroe does not flip on his forehand.

When McEnroe comes forward on his forehand side the racket head is on edge. The only way to flip is having the racket head slightly closed (strings facing to the ground), then it goes on edge. At least that is how I interpret Macci's explaining of the flip which he did for several of my students who work with him.

One of the catalysts for this thread was the question as to whether or not McEnroe flipped. I have come to feel that “flipping” is a bad word to use when referring to the action of the wrist when hitting a forehand. 10splayer has come as close to anyone in defining it but I believe that rolling is a much better term.

McEnroe does roll his wrist (actually his forearm and wrist together) and so does Roger Federer. The big difference in the role of the wrist roll of the two players is the size of the circumference of the rolls and this has much to do with the difference in the grips. The stronger the grip the greater allowance for the circumference of the rolling of the forearm and wrist...which is why we see the racquet face down in the stronger grips. The continental grip is going to restrict the rolling of the forearm to a large degree compared to the strong eastern...as when comparing the action between McEnroe and Federer.

The action of the wrist is taking place on a much smaller scale...but if you check the position of the thumb on the racquet in the backswing, at impact and after follow through you will indeed find that the wrist is rolling with the weight of the racquet head. See the position of the thumb in frame 35 as compared to it’s position in frame 46.

[stotty]

I don't want to get all "tennis warehouse" over this, but isn't Mac 12 years older then Agassi? He may be a genius but he can't defy the ravages of time.

[gordonp]

On another note, McEnroe does not flip on his forehand.

When McEnroe comes forward on his forehand side the racket head is on edge. The only way to flip is having the racket head slightly closed (strings facing to the ground), then it goes on edge. At least that is how I interpret Macci's explaining of the flip which he did for several of my students who work with him.

[stroke]

Did you see what Agassi did to Mc. recently? Killed him, and Mc was left defending, and watching Ag. fh go by him. Way more rpm/pace. Ag. was gloating, and pursing his lips on each fh winner.

That was interesting to watch. Agassi did really seem to be enjoying himself as Mac got more and more dramatically unhappy. Jimmy Arias commentating the match said Aggasi really enjoys playing Mac, and giving him a "free therapy session". Agassi is a worst case match up for Mac.

[bottle]

One notable key to McEnroe's success lies in the stillness of his upper body. His upper body remains vertical, still, and "calm" throughout the stroke. The body acts as a post while the shoulder and upper arm do the guiding and steering, made possible and underpinned by his great set up and wonderful balance.

Stillness can equate to exquisite timing. McEnroe and Mecir were equally "still" players and two of the best timers of a ball you will ever see.

Contrary to the ATP forehand which unleashes itself following a series of critical events, McEnroe's forehand is guided and caressed, not so much an explosion, more a guided missile.

One of the key advantages of a forehand like McEnroe's (or Connors come to think of it) is there are no wild misses. Forehands without flip are simple and reliable and more accurate...just not so powerful...you can't have everything.

Especially as you get older.

[GeoffWilliams]

Did you see what Agassi did to Mc. recently? Killed him, and Mc was left defending, and watching Ag. fh go by him. Way more rpm/pace. Ag. was gloating, and pursing his lips on each fh winner.

[stotty]

One more thing...

One notable key to McEnroe's success lies in the stillness of his upper body. His upper body remains vertical, still, and "calm" throughout the stroke. The body acts as a post while the shoulder and upper arm do the guiding and steering, made possible and underpinned by his great set up and wonderful balance.

Stillness can equate to exquisite timing. McEnroe and Mecir were equally "still" players and two of the best timers of a ball you will ever see.

Contrary to the ATP forehand which unleashes itself following a series of critical events, McEnroe's forehand is guided and caressed, not so much an explosion, more a guided missile.

One of the key advantages of a forehand like McEnroe's (or Connors come to think of it) is there are no wild misses. Forehands without flip are simple and reliable and more accurate...just not so powerful...you can't have everything.

[don_budge]

John Yandell...

Thanks.

Should we ask John Yandell to ask John McEnroe about this?

I don't think that John Yandell reads this thread...but personally I think that there is a great story here. Especially if we could get some answers from John McEnroe himself. I wish that McEnroe could see this thread (plus My Thoughts on the McEnroe Backhand thread) for himself to see that there are still some dinosaurs around that appreciate his style of play...and I wonder what his response would be. He seems to be a very engaging guy.

[bottle]

In Tennis: Take Hogan’s Secret Downstairs

The following may merely be my personal take on how best to hit a “McEnroe-esque” forehand. There could be another way that’s better, but I’m pleased—right now—with this one.

In this famous video Ben Hogan demonstrates the two different planes in his golf swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ywZ4b6vjFc

In this video, Sir Toby Belch explains “Hogan’s Secret.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58A1-abPcEM

In another video, which I won’t include, the golfer Doug Tewell rejects the notion of twisting open club face on backswing and twisting it closed on foreswing. In his simplified system—for sale—he advocates “square to square.”

In an earlier post I described my first attempts at personal cross-hybridization of these ideas over to tennis in a continental forehand. They included extra roll and great extension from the elbow slapshot-style right in the middle of the forward stroke.

Ultimate simplification may lie in imitation of John McEnroe’s zombie arm, with “zombie arm” being the arm straightness he achieves in his rhythmic down and up backswing.

One can easily learn this. But one needs to start sending racket a bit to the outside to make space for subsequent cockeyed loop. One also needs to accelerate the down and up to make time for that curved drop.

Even though the arm is straight the elbow can effectively slide into the edge of one’s body as in “Hogan’s secret.”

Then you swing to the ball and “arm rolls with the weight of the racquet head coming over and through the ball," to adapt the words of Steve Navarro, just one version of the “poptop” the Gullickson brothers used to talk about.

There’s no mention here of gross body contribution, which could be natural and automatic for some athletes. One can learn the needed body moves, also precise and essential, through reading about them and/or watching video.

[bottle]

Yes!

[gordonp]

Thanks.

Should we ask John Yandell to ask John McEnroe about this?

[bottle]

Your story about your interview with John McEnroe at the South Orange Tennis Club in South Orange, New Jersey is like a breath of fresh air...like a cleansing wind in a dusty, moldy room that has been boarded up airtight for many years. The vision of John McEnroe leaping to his feet clad only in a towel...excitedly and passionately demonstrating his forehand technique is an image that is etched in my mind forever. Thank you very much for your contribution to the forum these past few days. I have found it to be quite enlightening.

McEnroe may have said he was rolling his wrist but it looks to me as if his whole arm is rolling. By the way...my very own forehand has never been better since I changed my grip some few months back. My arm rolls with the weight of the racquet head coming over and through the ball.

"My arm rolls with the weight of the racquet head coming over and through the ball."

[don_budge]

Frame by frame...cue right arrow

I think you should try John McEnroe's wrist action in a continental forehand again and make it work this time.

I got up the clip:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

I shut my eyes and pushed the right arrow 37 times per your instruction.

Now, what's wrist doing-- at contact?

It's moving, right, but how? And in what direction? And the arm is rolling a little. In fact, if you measured out-- in roughly equal amounts-- the arm roll and the wrist laying back, the two would almost cancel each other out to preserve the original pitch of John McEnroe's zombie arm swing but maybe come over the ball just a bit.

Am I wrong? And isn't this exploration more fun than asking if the novel, the continental forehand and God are dead? Those are hackneyed subjects that usually lead to dull conversation.

Your answer in # 31, gordonp, for which I'm very grateful, has made the question I asked more real even for me.

Goal: to solve a little bit of mystery very likely to be clouded by myth, i.e., John McEnroe's hands are so special, he's such a genius, nothing he does could ever apply to the ordinary you or me.

Maybe, but on the other hand he founded a tennis school. So he must believe in education and communication as true possibility.

Moreover, he wished to make something technical clear way back in that locker room, in unguarded and spontaneous enthusiasm-- a time to trust some source the most?

I always wonder, in cases like this: What if the great man doesn't inhabit some other planet but is rather being more simple and straightforward than the rest of us?

Because the McEnroe forehand has fewer things about it to go wrong than most of the forehands we ever see or model.

To be sure, what parts there are must be in perfect order, and something other than wrist could be causing one's McEnroe imitation to go wrong.

Let's check a few more videos to see if this backward giving wrist idea can persist, and if so, can one appropriate it as part of one's personal arsenal?

I learned a little something...and it all adds up! The right arrow takes you frame by frame through the videos. That sure beats dragging through with the mouse.

But what gordonp is asserting through his conversation with John McEnroe, who was informally expounding on the virtue of his continental grip, is exactly the experience that I have had with this experiment.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

By my count...it is 39 clicks to the point in his stroke where the wrist is beginning to do its subtle work. When the racquet is directly under the "Q" for Quality. It is at this point in the swing that the swing has worked its way up from his feet through his legs and into his hips and upwards through the shoulders and finally the arm...at click 39 the wrist is poised to do it's job of releasing all of the energy through that chain of events to deliver the payload into the ball. This is very Hoganesque...one can almost visualize a golf club in his hands and I definitely see flex in the wrist here. In golf speak we might say that his wrist is "cocked".

At click 40 he is making contact with the ball or nearly so and immediately afterwards the racquet goes zooming past McEnroe where for all intents and purposes it finishes at click 46. There is no more energy to be produced at this point. It's a perfect Yandelian finish...eye level with the hand in line with the opposite shoulder. This is where I visualize my finish.

John raises a couple of important points as to why this stroke works and will work in the hands of anyone and not just McEnroe. A good part of the hands ability and genius of McEnroe can be attributed to his technique and to his style now...as far as I am concerned. And apparently as far as he is concerned as he was passionately engaged in conversation with gordonp so many years ago. Of course he is supremely talented but lesser talents can use this technique to their advantage as easily as he did. If only they are taught or somehow otherwise learn the wherefor's and the why's.

He hits with topspin...and so do I. I posted that Davis Cup clip from Argentina somewhere where he exchanged topspin shots with Guillermo Vilas for five tough grueling sets down on the red clay of Buenos Aires. Back in those days there were significant differences in the surfaces and some styles were more suitable for specific surfaces. McEnroe was not a clay court specialist by reputation but he could have made his mark there if he had chosen to...I am convinced.

The McEnroe tactical objective with his forehand is to pierce as well as to probe. His low spinning darts are an excellent counter to the heavily top spun ball particularly when you factor in that this type of swing is conducive to taking the ball early and on the rise. As far as hitting winners off of the forehand side...that was not necessarily his first objective either but he certainly could. Personally I feel that I hit more winners with this technique. His was a tactical game that was more often than not concluded at the net where he either had a put away or his opponent made the error. There used to be style in the play of tennis. Not everyone is cut out to play huge topspin. People...and players are different.

Because the McEnroe forehand has fewer things about it to go wrong than most of the forehands we ever see or model.

For me this is one of the most important aspects of all when taking into consideration the plusses and minuses. I played the Federfore as bottle has coined it before I switched to the McEnroesque and this swing is much simpler and it simply takes far less energy to produce. With the ATP version of the forehand it seems to me that the action of the wrist is over exaggerated compared to the action of McEnroe's wrist and this is what really appeals to me. Being from a quality control background...less movement means less variation which should in turn produce more consistency through efficiency of motion.