My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[10splayer]

Can someone download a McEnroe (from behind) and Fed forehand for me...Not sure how to do it. I certainly have a few thoughts. Especially after a few of Bottle and DB's post.

[stotty]

Interesting

Interesting...either you're wrong or I've completely misunderstood something all my life (wouldn't be the first time). I'm gonna have to read the articles and digest the whole theory...will post later.

First thoughts....not sure micro timing is such a big issue. Baseball looks more difficult than tennis in the hand-to-eye/split-second timing issue...just thinking off my head here.

Second thoughts...my wrist is passive and relaxed when I hit my groundies. I don't pump...maybe the wrist is doing less than I thought.

Really going to have to think about this one...

[tennis_chiro]

Here comes the wet blanket!!

This is an interesting discussion. I can't tell you how jealous I am of d_b's physical ability to still go out and test his hypotheses on the court. Got to be exciting. Gee, I just wish I could handle practicing the strokes I would teach myself today. I don't need to experiment. I know what I would like to develop.

But one thing I would not be trying to develop would be a wrist snap into the contact zone. The shape of the strokes on the pro level no doubt includes a "flip" and a "stretch-shortening cycle". But before you start running off to check which grip is going to potentiate a more effective wrist action into the contact zone, let's think about a couple of simple facts. And remember that the golf ball is stationary. The tennis ball is not, at least not in anything except the serve and usually not even there.

You may want to look at these two links to pdf's:

Wikipedia on Response Time (mental chronometry):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_chronometry

Paper from a British Ph.D. on Reaction Times:
"Thus there are two new reaction times here: 1) very slow, involved in the learning process or, in other words, learning a sequence, and 2) very quick (to instantaneous), involved in learned sequences."

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~noelh/ReactionTimes.htm

The Wikipedia piece (obviously not admissible in any academic environment but I hope it serves its purpose here) points out "The mean reaction times for sprinters at the Beijing Olympics were 166 ms for males and 189 ms for females, but in one out of 1,000 starts they can achieve 109 ms and 121 ms, respectively". In other words, one in a 1000 can demonstrate a Reaction Time in simple terms APPROACHING 1/10 of a second (read more than).

Let's see: 1/10th of a second; that's about 25/250ths of a second; actually, it works out to a little more than 27/250ths of a second; for 1 in a thousand.

We have 4/1000ths or 1/250th of a second when we are going to be in contact with the ball. I'm just guessing here, but I imagine whatever direction the ball is going to go is 70-80% determined in the first 2 of those 4 1000s of a second. We can screw it up or maybe add a little momentum in those last 2. That means that if we are snapping the wrist and effectively changing the orientation of the racket face to the ball at any time during the contact zone, we have to time it correctly to 1/500th of a second.

Now, let's see. If I assume I am one in a thousand (obviously), then all I have to do is time the wrist snap to 1/500th of a second. And my reaction time is an exceptional 54 500ths of a second. (Hey, Bottle, can you help me out on my syntax of 1/500th, one five-hundreth, etc. I don't think it is in Strunk and White, except for "do not take shortcuts at the cost of clarity"!)

So if my timing is off by 1/54th of the total length of my reaction time, I miss.

No. I don't think so. I want a swing that presents the racket face to the ball in a constant alignment/orientation/relationship through an area of the contact/hitting zone that is much longer than the actual distance through which the strings will actually be touching the ball. As it is, impact is going to change that orientation and only the proper development of momentum of the head of the racket will enable the racket to go through that zone without being misdirected by that impact. The job of my wrist is to do the best it can to maintain that constant orientation. If that orientation were to be changing as going from slightly closed to a little less closed, that change would have to be regulated by the wrist to be happening constantly over the course of the contact/hitting zone. In other words, if I can swing fast enough to keep the strings touching the ball for 4 to 6 inches, I want the racket face to have a constant orientation to the ball achieving my desired trajectory for at least 2 to 3 times that long.

All this talk of the flip potentiating Mac's forehand and backhand is very interesting, but the key to the consistency and accuracy of those strokes is how well Mac is able to maintain the racket-face/ball relationship/orientation through the hitting zone. The stretch-shortening cycle gives the hitting structure additional power and resilience as the body/shoulder/hips/arm swing the racket through the hitting zone.

But, please, don't start thinking you are going to snap your wrist into the hiting zone. I don't care if you use a continental, Eastern or full Western grip; good players are not snapping the wrist into the contact zone. Perhaps I am reading this thread incorrectly, but you are at least treading awfully close to advocating something that is simply impossible.

If the wrist is moving then the contact point/racket face/ball relationship is changine very rapidly. That change would have to be timed to 1/500th of a second. That's why my smart ass juniors with wristy forehands suddenly hit the ball so much better when I strap a Wrist-Assist or Greg Norman's Secret onto their wrists.

If you are going to try to accomodate a continental grip to a heavy topspin forehand by snapping or just manipulating the position of the wrist, good luck. You CAN hit topspin with a continental grip, but it is much better for hitting a relatively flat ball.

Just remember: fast reaction time = 109 thousanths of a second. Dwell time of the ball touching the strings = 4 thousanths of a second.

Looking forward to getting a few comments for this post,

don

[bottle]

Neat: This Bidnis of Arm Straightening a Little

The first forehand clip you showed this time, Steve, does have arm straightening a little just before the wrist punch. So why not same thing on backhand? The backhands we're all looking at were filmed from behind or in front so we don't get many angles from which to see whether the premise is true.

But how often blind faith-- when it should and shouldn't-- happens! Usually, when it comes to something as subtle as wrist in a ground stroke one is better off just taking the plunge to go ahead and say (or do!) what one believes is happening.

You, Steve-- I assume it was you-- even took a poll on whether there was a flip in John McEnroe's forehand. And you won, 4-0 . One of the votes was mine, by the way.

But why was there the need for the poll? Because people seemed insecure and unsure. One of those people, though, might have been playing devil's advocate. You've smoked him out before.

I know I've said before that I was unsure about the ping-pong slam idea on the backhand side, wondered if maybe the martinet keeps his wrist supinated (curled sometime) as I see in one video of his lob.

I have a lot of questions in general about wrist in all the groundies that people discuss and then learn. Some really great tennis thinkers, e.g., talk about the wrist giving at contact, i.e., going backward to stay on the ball longer and to protect the arm the way soft strings also do.

And except for listening to myself talk to myself, I've never heard anybody, much less some seasoned teaching pro with the natural authority of dealing every day with all sorts of students, discuss ALL the wrist possibilities in the same take or paragraph. You could be the first, Steve!

Right now I'm thinking no wrist propulsion on western, semi-western, strong eastern, weak eastern, yes on John McEnroe's modified continental with big knuckle on pointy ridge. Am I right? If not, who is right?

On my Ziegenfuss I'm finally ready to abandon the left brain (over-organized)
scheme of arm first then body. I want a little loop and gradual straightening of arm (forward!) with wrist going backward all at the same time right to the end of the followthrough. That says wrist will hold the hand on ball for a micro-second longer.

The arm will be moving independently, just a bit, but the stroke will still be spring don't swing.

But that may be a weird and undesirable stroke for some.

To return to McEnroe: Hard to see the flip. Hard to see the arm straighten into the ball. Hard to see the wrist explosion. Is that right?

[don_budge]

don_budge, bottle and Tilden...the John McEnroe continental gripped forehand

FH Center Side1- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

on a ball hit directly at mcenroe...he back steps himself into position with no less than 5 small steps into perfect alignment to hit a closed stance forehand...shoulders, racquet and feet in 3 neat lines ready to go forwards...swing initiated with the lower body, feet, legs and then the hips...working its way up to the shoulders as indicated by both hands moving in the same direction at the same speed...at the same time. all of the moving parts kept neatly in the same plane. left shoulder driving into the ball with minimal stretch shortening in the wrist action. but even though this is minimal movement and barely detectable at full speed...it is delivering the payload in a perhaps more efficient use of motion. this accounts for his accuracy, power and deception.

FH Center Side 2- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

on a ball hit slightly to his left...he again positions himself with 5 small steps...notice the backswing and how small a distance his left hand actually has to travel to get in position to swing...the hand is definitely leading the racquet head, butt first to the ball...contact perhaps even or even slightly behind leading hip. impressive use of body once again to encourage a free swinging arm throughout the entire swing as indicated by the full follow through with the hand finishing shoulder high. the arc of his swing tends to be from the waist at the initiation of the forwards movement and depending upon the height of the ball the head drops slightly below the ball...the hand generally finishes in the shoulder height area.

More food for thought...as my dear old Coach Sherman Collins used to say. I can still hear his voice in my ear...I wished that I had listened a bit more closely way back when.

But when we watch the John McEnroe forehand in video, slowing it down, stopping it, etc., we see that his arm has gotten straight before any of the forward swing.

John...aka bottle. Please have a look here and your point about the straightening of the arm is particularly interesting because I never pay much regard to what is happening mechanically between the start to the finish...figuring that all motion is a product of the sequence events from the beginning to the follow through. In the video clip below it appears that structurally the arm remains pretty much intact throughout the swing and it appears that there is just a bit of play in that arm at the elbow...and except for perhaps that little bit of lag in the wrist that occurs in the beginning of his forwards motion that is so easily overlooked if you are looking for the hyperextended lag in the modern swing. By the time that the racquet head is catching up to the hand at impact of the ball...there you have the one inch punch effect ala Bruce Lee. But once that bit of action has taken place take a look in slow motion as to what is occurring in the structure of the arm throughout the follow through which is over when the hand reaches about shoulder high. Not much. Like the backhand this is not a long swing by modern standards but it is a free swinging arm nevertheless. Listen to the sound that McEnroe makes when he is making contact...that is quite a concentrated effort. That is the sensation that I get when making contact as well...that of a concentrated effort. Like when you punch something.

From Bill Tilden's book..."How to Play Better Tennis...a complete guide to tactics and technique" (page 37).

"This grip which is also known as the Eastern Service grip or the Universal grip, is used for the chop and slice stroke, the volley, the smash, the lob and the drop shot...as well as for the slice, twist and cannonball service. It should never be used to drive, particularly off the forehand, where it lacks power. Halfway between the handle positions of the forehand and backhand grips is a slanting surface of the handle. Starting from the original forehand key position, move the hand an eighth circle turn backward or counterclockwise (which is half of the way to the backhand grip), until the palm of the hand lies on this slanting surface of the handle. Then close the fingers firmly across the handle and depress the wrist making an angle with the handle of the racquet that will bring the head of the racquet above the wrist. The hand in position is not materially changed only eased between forehand and backhand."

Particularly interesting to note in the Tilden observation regarding the continental grip that he asserts that the racquet head should be above the wrist when clearly McEnroe is breaking this "law" as his wrist is clearly below the level of the hand...putting the shaft of the racquet in a similar position as the shaft of the golf club. This is the difference in striking the continental gripped forehand for power which Tilden asserts "should never" be done. But he did not take into consideration dropping the racquet head below the wrist which changes the structure of the wrist and the dynamics of the action through the hitting zone.

I wish that I could have that discussion with Tilden...maybe someday I will...in my dreams.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

[don_budge]

In my Dream...an explanation to an older gentlemen.

Last night I had a dream and I was explaining the sensation of the continental forehand to an older gentlemen at the tennis club.

I told him...that the structure of the swing seemed to have a natural tendency to keep the ball to the right of me and to prevent it from missing to the left. In this manner it makes it much easier to go down the line aggressively and with less margin for error...at the same time it keeps my attack on the right hander's backhand side. It is much more effective in producing low angles as well. It is much more natural to hook the ball to the right and more natural to hit hard down the line without missing to the left. Keep in mind I am left handed.

I went on to explain that when attempting to go down the line with my "other" forehand my fear was to miss wide to the left and this caused me to make compensating moves which took away from the sureness and naturalness of my stroke. It seems that I was guarding against going to the left...especially from an off balance position. It seems to me that this is sort of natural sensation given the "open" structure of the wrist in the more laid back position. If caught with the wrist slightly open, the contact is going to be late. With the continental I don't have this feeling of uncertainty and consequently if I miss, more often than not it is by inches.

Just a thought...from my actual dream. From the "Weird Scenes From Inside the Gold Mine"...Jim Morrison and The Doors.

[bottle]

Re-conceiving a Golf on Wheels Stroke

I don't think I'm ready to trust those tennis people who don't use their wrist in this attractive, propulsive way...to make generalities about the people who do.

Also, I'm bemused by people who worship kinetic chain without understanding that the links should be uneven.

The way that Ben Hogan divides a swing into two parts only-- hips and then all the rest-- ought to be terminally instructive for the jokers at cocktail parties.

A lot of kinetic chain may happen from the point that Hogan says, "Now hit the ball," but the hips already happened and are out of proportion to the rest.

Obviously they provide great power but also great form-- the whole inside out construction and nearly all of the substance of the stroke.

[bottle]

From INNER SLINGSHOT: THE KEY TO MODERN TENNIS

It is the last day of the year, and I am determined to finish this unfinishable book, and the Tennis Player bulletin page is down right now, at least on my computer, which means that I can’t get into the TP discussion boards. So here is the YouTube video that don_budge posted two days ago for his speed hand comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ywZ4b6vjFc

If you, reader, have easy access to this video right now, or to other pictures of Ben Hogan, or perhaps just remember the look of his golf swing even though you’re just a tennis player, you may note all the delayed sting in his, and McEnroe’s forehand strike.

Hips go ahead of shoulders, arm and wrist to create an inside out swing.

The hips simultaneously rotate and go out toward the target until one is finally prepared to uncock through the back of the ball.

Is this information transferable to tennis? Absolutely.

But it is dependent on continental grip.

Only with continental grip can a one-inch wrist explosion really work. With all other tennis grips the player is better off not using wrist for propulsion but rather for timing and to steer.

And if I’m repeating myself—good—repetition is good in tennis.

Basically, don_budge’s or Steve Navarro’s comparison is valid. But wherever there is a metaphor, as Robert Frost so tellingly argued, there is a place where it falls apart—one reason that everybody who plans on using language needs to study poems.

Here, the place where comparison erodes is pure opportunity for invention.

Many players, particularly elderly ones, would love to have a delicate, short backswing forehand as effective as McEnroe’s. He is at the time of this writing the top seniors player in the United States and in the world.

If one wanted to keep the same construction but add shock-and-awe, one could use a longer backswing, like Ben Hogan, and keep more releasing bend in arm right up to contact.

If one then followed this experiment to its logical extreme, one might backswing the racket all the way around one’s neck like Ellsworth Vines.

Or develop a huge starting loop containing all the same elements the way Tiny Tom Okker did.

[stroke]

Feel free to use the ping pong analogy. As you probably realize, a world class ping pong player using a traditional grip is really using a continental grip to hit off both sides, just like McEnroe does with his tennis. More impressive to me with this grip is how McEnroe hits his topspin fh. It is very difficult to hit topspin with the continental in tennis. One more thing I find interesting. You may have noticed how Federer takes his bh much earlier than players like Gasquet and Wawrinka, who use strong eastern bh grips. I think Federer uses a very slightly stronger grip on his topspin bh than McEnroe, but still basicly a continental. I think this enables him, like Mac, to take the ball early, on the rise.

[don_budge]

stroke...again!

McEnroe's backhand, with his continental grip, makes for very interesting form when he hits his topspin bh. It appears he bends his wrist inward a he prepares, closing the racquet face,and then extends his wrist through the shot. Just as a world class ping pong player produces his topspin bh, using what would be in tennis terms a continental grip. In world class ping pong, there is no such thing as a strong, eastern type bh grip for the topspin bh.

You posted just before I did...the new thread. A great omen my friend! This is going to be fruitful. You were one of the catalysts. Thanks for the thought...it is central to my analysis coming up.

[stroke]

McEnroe's backhand, with his continental grip, makes for very interesting form when he hits his topspin bh. It appears he bends his wrist inward a he prepares, closing the racquet face,and then extends his wrist through the shot. Just as a world class ping pong player produces his topspin bh, using what would be in tennis terms a continental grip. In world class ping pong, there is no such thing as a strong, eastern type bh grip for the topspin bh.

[don_budge]

Goodbye 2012...hello 2013. The year of the Continental grip.

This post from don_budge was my Christmas present and I'm so thankful. Thank you db for the insights and time you put into this thread. Awesome stuff. Geeking out to it big time. Thanks for your knowledge, support and kind words throughout the year.

Merry Christmas to all!

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

klacr...aka Kyle LaCroix...aka Chef DeLacroix. That was the nicest thing that anyone has ever said to me. Thank you. Coming from you...The Kid who loves tennis...it's special. Best to you. And those that love you! To all of you!


If bottle can do it...so can I. Thanks a lot bottle. I'll give it a year...God willing. 365 days. One more trip around the sun. I am happy that you appreciated that bit of Ben Hogan. Truly one in a million. Only an artist can truly appreciate stunning reflections into the infinite. The white light searing into ones canyon of the mind with the wind whistling around and around like a freight train. Reality. Truly inspiring.

But back to the business at hand. It's the continental grip...stupid. Why didn't I try this when I was a tennis player and relevant? Well...they say everything happens for a reason. I am not so certain at this point. A lot of this business in life seems to be random...or is it? The three dots...if only I have these three little dots I can connect it. To be connected...to your Toyota Land Cruiser...your prize mare...your student...your lover...your inner warrior...your forehand. Ferdinand Celine. The Journey...to the End.

Case in point. This John McEnroe forehand stuff was born out of my longing to drive my backhand. So what do I do...I embark on the unlikely journey into the realm of the continental forehand. Sort of the completion backwards principle as espoused by "The Talking Heads". You have to get in to get out. Alice through the Looking Glass. The power of mirrors converting the right into the left. Oh my God...look where this dream has taken me. Hallucinating like a mad man! It was something stroke said. It made me hallucinate. What do I mean...studini? Oh...I forgot. You don't read me. Well...then you don't know what you are missing...do you?

I am in direct polar opposite juxtaposition of every...what did 10splayer call them...oh yes, every developmental coach for the past 25 years. Just where I want to be. The story of my life. The herd is going that way...I head off in the opposite direction. There must be a reason he mused...yes there must be. There has to be. "It's not that I don't like people...it's just that I feel a whole lot better when they aren't around."-Mickey Rourke in "Barfly". So just where have all of these geniuses led us. Have they led us to believe that there is only one way to play "Modern Tennis"? First the tennis establishment allows the coup d'etat with the equipment and anything goes...and then they engineer the hijacking of the coaching. Brain washed? If you are...you certainly wouldn't know it would you? No matter...it's not my problem.

Well while we are getting on in such a cozy personal manner...I want to share my hallucination about this bit of tennis technique that I have drawn out of the wishing well. My wish to drive my backhand led me to a weapon on the forehand side as well. Maybe it's for left handers only. Those looking at the world from the other side of the mirror. That doesn't make me crazy...it just gives me perspective. The forehand is a big gun now. At 58 years of age I reschooled, rethought, retooled myself to hit this stroke. Not a bad job of self teaching if I do say so. Oops! I think I just strained my shoulder patting myself on the back.

Analyzing 31 video shots of John McEnroe's forehand compliments of John Yandell's brilliant creation tennisplayer.net...three weeks of holding my racquet in nothing but a continental grip and its game on! Come on...make my day. I'm sold...I sold it to myself. I bought into it hook line and sinker from day one. Try it...you'll like it. I dare you. I don't really care if you do or not...but I'm sharing. But do it for your tennis_student(s) enlightenment. Share!

Yesterday I took it right at my ex-partner who is 35 years old and plays the number one spot at the club. He's fast, he hits hard with lots of glorified topspin and hates to lose. In short he's a tennis player. A lot younger than me. He looked a bit confused as I explained the process that I went through after seeing McEnroe take Wilander apart three weeks ago. He said that I made him feel awful...just like Wilander said about McEnroe. There is a God! I have always known in my heart that I am the better tennis player but his youth or his lack of years played to his advantage. But yesterday was a different story...I controlled the tempo of our duel which we played without the serve. The new forehand made all of the difference. I attack...I defend...I hit hard...I hit deep...I hit angles...I hit with topspin...I hit with underspin...I hit hard down the line with sidespin...I hit without spin. When I miss it is by inches more often than not. It is everything that I have written about here. I have not exaggerated. Not a bit. Just the facts. Read 'em and weep. Thanks for your patience. Brothers and sisters. For hearing me out. For listening to the voice in the wilderness. It's different. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Just the way I like it. Just like the Bad Boy in Johnny McEnroe.

Does he flip? Damn right he does. That little flip has a multiplier effect in the wrist when using the continental grip. Flips off the establishment every chance he gets. Good for you Johnny Boy. Good for me. Good for all of us. Good night to all of you. Much love and peace on earth. Wake up everyone! Gee...come to think of it, I hope that I don't wake up.

Today I embarked on the continental backhand journey with my boy Gustaf as my sparring partner. Wore him out. Supinate the wrist like the "other hand" in golf. That sounds pretty complicated and what do I mean by that...gee I don't know if I can do it. Ha ha ha...the hell I can't. Just tell me that I cannot do it. I'll show you! I think that I will start a new thread! Guess what I am going to call it? Ahh...who cares? Until next year! 2013! Party hardy everyone! I am going to bed early and getting up to work on some projects. Getting a leg up on the competition! God bless us...each and every one of us!

[bottle]

I didn't want to be blown away before I wrote my post, but now I've seen the Hogan video-- and I am blown away.

[bottle]

Exciting. My way right now of dealing with these questions is to take my body-damaged self to the cocktail parties that Hope seems to find and then talk to the best golfers there. One guy demonstrated hips then shoulders then arm then wrist, all on the downswing. I guess he was taking a divot.

I was thinking about length of the martinet's backswing (not much). Looks like short game to me. Not from the apron but farther out. Maybe a seven-iron or pitching wedge, but then, mid-way through, the shot turns from a chip into something more fierce.

And you can see his head trying to move left every time. It doesn't go very far but surely must create nice tug-o-war with the inside out swing. With contact point farther back than eastern, semiwestern or western just as the one book on continental grip (no, don't remember the title and it's lost) always said.

Why didn't this work for me the first time around? Lack of the precision you're mentioning, almost for sure.

[don_budge]

Ben Hogan and John McEnroe...The Most Important Part of the Swing

I like to say that Tennis is Golf on the run. Here is one of the reasons why...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ywZ4b6vjFc

This clip was made after Ben Hogan and Sam Snead played a round of golf at the Houston Country Club that Gene Sarazan proclaimed to be the best round of golf from tee to green that he had ever witnessed.

I have quoted from this clip several times in the last couple of years and found this on youtube so I would like to share it with all of you. I like the comments that Gary Player makes in the beginning...he too realizes that much of the modern day teaching is seeking to reinvent the wheel.

But take a look...and then compare the fundamentals that Ben Hogan is emphasizing to those of the actual McEnroe forehand. Much is made of McEnroe's handsy talent but as Mr. Hogan says...it all starts with the lower body. Nothing about the McEnroe hands would be thought of as special without his extraordinary ability to put himself into position to make his swing. I have never seen anybody with so much meticulous work in creating the three lines of feet, shoulders and racquet in their position to go forwards with the swing. Repetitive motions become more repetitive if they begin from the same position every time.

My own experience so far with the swinging of a McEnroe forehand has been verbatim out of Hogan's mouth. When I get my ass into position to make use of the body parts in the order that he spells out everything falls into place beautifully. But if I start to rely too much on just the shoulder and arm motion I lose that lag in the wrist and begin to steer the ball...which still is a pretty effective shot but it loses some of the sting that makes this swing so distinctively penetrating and deceptive.