My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[10splayer]

...this is what I wrote of my observations of Karsten’s backhand.



I have been playing around with the John McEnroe forehand for a couple of weeks and finally this past week I have put it into play. I am so happy with the results I wonder if I will ever go back to my old “modern” forehand. The above comments about Karsten’s backhand can be substitute for my feeling now about my forehand.

I made the commitment to the continental forehand in practice against my best juniors this week and then I took on my best player and really sliced him up real nice...as Scarface might say. It’s funny because his topspin and power game was starting to overwhelm me but I totally had him on his heels yesterday and totally controlled him with variation of spin, placement and depth. I am super excited about the versatility in my forehand repertoire now...looking forward to practicing like I did when I was young. So many years ago. I did the same with another practice partner today. Now I have a little more appreciation for bottle’s thing over there in the “New Years Serve Thread”...giving in to some experimentation. I think this one is here to stay...the biggest asset in playing this was my ability to exploit the right handed backhand. Once I match the backhand to the forehand...Lookout!!!

More thoughts to follow regarding technique, tactics and comments from posters in this thread and other comments about McEnroe or his technique. It’s interesting how everyone is so sold on the new and modern tennis and that there is now only one way to play this game. All topspin...all of the time. I don’t think

 that this is the case at all.  It’s more likely that the coaching mindset has been hijacked into believing such nonsense and all court tennis has been relegated to the dust bin.  Well...these are the days aren’t they?  Of group think.  Of mind control.  Of political correctness.  Thinking otherwise is a dangerous thing...isn’t it?  Narrow minds would amuse me...if they were not so dangerous!  Robots!

McEnroe’s groundstrokes are not a legitimate way to play the game?...they stood up to the ruthless onslaught of Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KZgqB_BVQI

Then there was the 17 year old upstart Mats Wilander French Open Champion playing with some graphite racquet that was x % larger than the “Macsply” Dunlop Fort in this great Davis Cup match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaD5j...49F5AD90D83435

It would appear that this comment was directed towards me and those who advocate against the continental....We'll have to agree to disagree. Can't think of any developmental coach in the last 25 years in the trenches who actually advocate/teach this grip on the forehand. Are we all brainwashed? or is there a reason for it.

[don_budge]

Can you hit hard with this stroke? ...bottle asks.

Can you hit hard with this stroke, Steve? I got everything back, against even very good players, but I couldn't hit particularly hard. But I obviously play at a lower level.

So I want to know what you think goes into a hard McEnroe forehand. And I don't accept that only he can hit one.

Simplicity? Then anyone could do it. If they wanted. But they don't.

Why not? Utter dopes!!!!

In the art of conversation you will find that the true artist is the one who is asking the astute question. He is not there to expound upon what he knows...he is there to suck the last bit of information that he can out of you. bottle...is an artist. He paints with his words. He gets what he wants with his questions. Keep up the BAD work...bottle!

But yes...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

...is this hard enough for you? But what is speed...without control?

Here is McEnroe pounding one down the line at chest level. So much for the theory that the continental is only effective on low balls. Watch the Bad One at work. This ball from his opponent is coming from a height of upwards of two meters over the net probably with gobs of topspin. What is the McEnroe reply? He takes the ball somewhat on the rise and shoots a dart up the line. Very exquisite stuff I would say.

Take a look at the mechanics...you have by now looked at them a million times if you have followed my thoughts...word for word. Take your time and review every intimate detail of the swing of McEnroe. Stop at every frame and notice every nuance. From the classic McEnroe ready position...the familiar racquet head lagging behind on the backswing...but what's this? At the position where he has completed his backswing and he is ready to go forwards his racquet head is shoulder high and slightly above his hand and all of his weight is squarely on his back foot. This weight placement is a big key.

With a twist of the hips and a rotation of the shoulders he is transferring all of his weight forwards and with a subtle lag in the continental wristed stroke he takes this high spinning ball and hits it squarely on the screws and it looks like a clean winner. All of the homage being paid to the...what the hell are they calling it these days...stretch bla bla bla...and it appears to me that there is some sort of multiplier effect in the subtle lagging of the racquet head in McEnroe's continental action that drives the racquet head through the path of this ball...sans the gobs of the revered topspin of modern day tennis.

The key is one of patience. When you are hitting the continental forehand you must wait until the wrist engages through the mechanisms of the other actions of the body...feet, legs, hips, shoulders, swinging arm and then lastly and finally the wrist exploding into the ball. It is the one inch punch effect that tennis_chiro has mentioned on more than one occasion...with 90% percent of the power coming from the transfer of weight from that firmly planted back foot into the swinging arm and finally climaxing through the conduit of the wrist.

One must wait...which is of course a virtue as in patience...but there is so little virtue left in the world today. It is no wonder that the continental gripped forehand cannot be contemplated as effective...people want "shock and awe" with "gigabytes".

Just keep that wrist intact until every thing is swinging and let it go just before impact. Yes...you can hit it hard. So can I. But the beauty of this swing is that you can hit any which way you want with only subtle variation in your mechanics.

Now watch that clip about twenty times in a row without pausing. Listen to the sound of the ball on the strings. Is that hard enough for you?

[don_budge]

The John McEnroe forehand as viewed as a LOB...

LOB

FH Lob CourtLevel Rear- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

from by now the all too familiar mcenroe ready position with the racquet face clearly cheating well towards the backhand side...johnny boy turns his shoulders with the racquet face/head still lagging behind as it customarily does in his backswing. what does this tell you about the tension in his wrist as the racquet swings itself back to its temporary resting spot in position to go forwards? answer: it is relaxed but not limp. everything about the preparation for this shot looks identical or nearly identical to every other shot that he has hit in this review...or is the racquet face slightly more closed in the ready to go forwards position? here mcenroe gives it all away...the secret to his technique on the mcenroe forehand...when starting forwards for this lob there is what our very own tennis_chiro will call a “gravity drop” where the racquet head is going to free fall to a position conspicuously below the ball and with a free swinging arm that is moving largely on account and in response to the cues from the mcenroe lower body, hips and then shoulders. lastly...it is the free swinging arm and then “magically” it is the wrist...the subtle flex and hinging that makes the racquet head slice through the path of the ball like a warm knife through soft butter. on this shot and all of the preceding shots there is a red thread and it all culminates in the beauty of the subtle and flexing movement of the racquet face through the path of the ball...it is the way that the continental grip acts as a passive hinge. there is really no other way to describe it.

[bottle]

Utterly fascinating. I'm especially interested that don_budge has done well with his Johnny Mac imitation against a tough young Swede or two. And his descriptions of the McEnroe forehands, each with a clip, are so vivid that I'm completely tempted to revive my own one-year-long experiment, without, of course, giving up on my other discoveries, more recent, all with a 3.5 Federer imitation grip.

Good information like this is what makes me want to experiment. And I've developed a healthy gimpy-grump contempt for all those WHO WOULD RATHER DIE THAN EVER EXPERIMENT IN ANYTHING.

Can you hit hard with this stroke, Steve? I got everything back, against even very good players, but I couldn't hit particularly hard. But I obviously play at a lower level.

So I want to know what you think goes into a hard McEnroe forehand. And I don't accept that only he can hit one.

We come back to "genius" and what that word means. Goethe is the one I know who wrote most on genius while being one. He stressed the simplicity in genius.

Simplicity? Then anyone could do it. If they wanted.

But they don't.

Why not?

Utter dopes!!!!

[stotty]

He's said that his model was Laver.

Odd that, Mac looks nothing like Laver. Then again, neither did Sampras, who also supposedly modelled himself on Laver. Though, I feel Sampras curiously concocted Laver as his playing model, as Laver was way before him and footage back then was very limited of Laver to be able to model himself on. There was no Internet to speak of when Sampras was in his teens...no Youtube...just limited VHS video clips...and why have a model who pre dates your childhood and formative tennis years...unusual...always thought it was strange.

Sometimes we don't like to admit who our "true" influences/models because we don't want to give that certain person the credit. But Sampras's model for sure wasn't Laver...just couldn't have been. Laver was almost finished even in Mac's tender youth...and Sampras is 12 years younger.

[don_budge]

Mac is a clone of Laver...

Going back to Mac's originality, it is conceivable that he was influenced stylistically by a much lesser player than a world-class player. I was influenced by the top players at my club as I was growing up, not always the very top players. You have no judgement about technique when you are young, so look for styles that impress you...you go for looks. It's feasible Mac did a similar thing...what a thought.

As it turns out it is not so unusual afterall...considering his idol was one Rodney Laver...the great Aussie from the Harry Hopman school of tennis tradition.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/rod-laver/

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/rod-laver/

He's said that his model was Laver.

[stotty]

Hmm..

Inquisitive minds...


Like don_budge, since the two McEnroe threads were posted I've found it irresistible to play around with the Mac forehand in my own game. I've been doing so for about a week....now I know what it's like to be bottle.

I've been trying an out an out mimic just to get an idea what it's like to hit forehands like Mac. Like I said earlier, Mac is the only really unique player I can think of. He's original. Originality should in theory be impossible as we are creatures that mimic and learn from each other...there's no other way. But when Mac was growing up (and the generations before), no top players had a stroke-style remotely similar to McEnroe's...or none that I know of. So stylistically at least, Mac is like no one else past or present. He is the best grass court player (and I'm talking about proper grass) ever. Tactically, on grass at least, he made virtually no errors of judgement.

Anyway when I tried to mimic Mac's forehand I found I was often fractionally late on the ball. I found it hard not to be late when under duress in quicker rallies. For me it takes longer to wield the racket when trying to keep a straight-ish arm like Mac has. I did find the ball "carried" on the strings a little and it's easy to see how contributive an influence being flipless may have been to his control....when you factor in the innate feel and talent he has. The thing is it (the direct mimic that is) can only really work for Mac. You have to have the god like control and feel for it to really work in the same way it did with him. For the rest of us, we look like a low grade club when we try to copy it.

Going back to Mac's originality, it is conceivable that he was influenced stylistically by a much lesser player than a world-class player. I was influenced by the top players at my club as I was growing up, not always the very top players. You have no judgement about technique when you are young, so look for styles that impress you...you go for looks. It's feasible Mac did a similar thing...what a thought.

[don_budge]

From “The Classic Backhand: Karsten Popp” thread a couple of weeks ago...

...this is what I wrote of my observations of Karsten’s backhand.

The consistency is incredible isn’t it? That consistency and the uncanny ability to place the ball precisely where he wants to at a variety of angles, speeds and spins with only a virtually undetectable variance in his mechanics. Given that the game of tennis is really about maneuvering your opponent into an off balanced position in order for you to deliver the knockout, this backhand is designed for just that. He can reach any part of the court with this backhand and your reference to laser like precision is no exaggeration...he can lay it on the lines or place it deep near the baseline into the corners, while at the same time he can access the forecourt of his opponent. Incredible overt power is not his forte...it is subtle deception that seals the deal. He is sneaky powerful though...or as you put it he operates with "effortless power". This is what makes this swing technically aesthetically beautiful but at the same time enables him to apply a severe tactical lesson too. You don’t think that the ball has so much on it until it is right up on you and then it seems to get there in a hurry.

I have been playing around with the John McEnroe forehand for a couple of weeks and finally this past week I have put it into play. I am so happy with the results I wonder if I will ever go back to my old “modern” forehand. The above comments about Karsten’s backhand can be substitute for my feeling now about my forehand.

I made the commitment to the continental forehand in practice against my best juniors this week and then I took on my best player and really sliced him up real nice...as Scarface might say. It’s funny because his topspin and power game was starting to overwhelm me but I totally had him on his heels yesterday and totally controlled him with variation of spin, placement and depth. I am super excited about the versatility in my forehand repertoire now...looking forward to practicing like I did when I was young. So many years ago. I did the same with another practice partner today. Now I have a little more appreciation for bottle’s thing over there in the “New Years Serve Thread”...giving in to some experimentation. I think this one is here to stay...the biggest asset in playing this was my ability to exploit the right handed backhand. Once I match the backhand to the forehand...Lookout!!!

More thoughts to follow regarding technique, tactics and comments from posters in this thread and other comments about McEnroe or his technique. It’s interesting how everyone is so sold on the new and modern tennis and that there is now only one way to play this game. All topspin...all of the time. I don’t think that this is the case at all. It’s more likely that the coaching mindset has been hijacked into believing such nonsense and all court tennis has been relegated to the dust bin. Well...these are the days aren’t they? Of group think. Of mind control. Of political correctness. Thinking otherwise is a dangerous thing...isn’t it? Narrow minds would amuse me...if they were not so dangerous! Robots!

McEnroe’s groundstrokes are not a legitimate way to play the game?...they stood up to the ruthless onslaught of Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KZgqB_BVQI

Then there was the 17 year old upstart Mats Wilander French Open Champion playing with some graphite racquet that was x % larger than the “Macsply” Dunlop Fort in this great Davis Cup match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaD5j...49F5AD90D83435

[10splayer]

I agree about Mac's lag being almost non existent. It's what drew me to post the "flipless" thread in the first place.

I was thinking today...

Would Mac's lack of lag be a contributive factor to his incredible control? I watched Mac many times at Wimbledon. He could almost "carry" the ball around on his racket strings, especially on the forehand. No other player has had the ability to steer a ball quite like Mac (Nastase excepted). Laying back the wrist to slap at the incoming ball, as most players do, releases the ball from the strings fractionally quicker, doesn't it?....compared with Mac's method...where wrist, arm and racket seem to act as one...the ball kind of has to get "carried"? I realise talent/feel are perhaps innate qualities...but the combination of Mac's feel/control with his flipless forehand could have created his ability to carry the ball on the strings seemingly longer han anyone else.

Mac is the only player I can think of who is completely unique...

This is a terrific description of Mc, and yes, I do think that the lack of layback, is a contributing factor to his control....It comes at the expense of RHS, but it served him just fine. While on the surface, his groundstrokes were unspectacular, this "steering", "carrying" of the ball served a greater purpose from a strategic standpoint, which of course was court position to attack. But yeah, I'm with you, he is an incredible talent. Never seen anyone able to pick up balls on the baseline or transition like him... One of buddies works and plays with him, and he is just amazed at what he can do with the ball...


Anyway, the intent behind my posts, were not to argue that a continental cannot be used, but rather that it is not preferred.....I view it as more of a "'catching" grip, which is why it's so useful on the volleys

[don_budge]

Video study...

Keep in mind that when studying the McEnroe forehand I have looked at each video many times. I use the mouse to stop the video at key points trying to decipher what I am seeing at full speed. I use the mouse to drag the video through frame by frame. I used every conceivable approach to study each shot in intimate detail. Each swing has been looked at and scrutinized from ready position to the end of the follow through and all points in between...particularly at the transition point where the backswing becomes the forward swing. Remember...the hand is quicker than the eye.

The acid test is on the court with the racquet in hand. Years ago there was a movie titled "Being John Malcovich" that starred John Cusack. I have done my own pilot of "Being John McEnroe's Forehand" as like our local literary fellow, bottle, I have adopted McEnroe's forehand as my own with some rather remarkable results which I would like to share with all of you. Just for...clarity's sake.

Here is some more John McEnroe for you to ponder. I was there in the crowd...somewhere in a different life. 1984...let's see...I was thirty years old. A mere shadow of my present self. See the real Don Budge with his wife Lori in the champions box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KZgqB_BVQI

[don_budge]

The John McEnroe forehand as viewed as a DROP SHOT...

DROP SHOT

FH DropShot CourtLevel Front1- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

after having elicited the weakest of returns from his opponent...perhaps after torturing him with four or five variations and combinations of forehands and backhands he is looking at a ball that he just plays safely and softly over the net and assumes the ready position just in case his hapless opponent manages to get to this before the second bounce. he just used a bunting technique on this ball with no muss and no fuss.

FH DropShot CourtLevel Front2- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

here is a drop shot with a little more delicate nature. like a federer featherer only much riskier...johnny can hold on to his intentions until the last moment by assuming his normal take back stance and the racquet in backswing mode. at the last possible moment he lifts the racquet face up and behind the ball and applies the knifing action to kill the ball from bouncing significantly. although he is using quite a bit of arm motion on this shot the rotation of the shoulders is doing the brunt of the work even on this touchy feely drop shot.

FH DropShot CourtLevel Rear- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

here you go...some brilliant disguise. assuming the backswing stance and halfway through the backswing it turns into something totally different. the opponent never saw it coming until it was way too late. mcenroe sort of cupped this attempt which is the ultimate demonstration of touch and risky wrist movement on the forehand side. well...afterall he is a genius with a tennis racquet. say what you want.

FH DropShot Rear1- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

after viewing all of the different things that he is capable of pulling off from this position on the court the opponent has the daunting task of guessing what is going to come off of that racquet. he may have driven the previous three balls deep into the forehand corner from this position but here he decides to kill him softly...ever so softly.

[don_budge]

The John McEnroe forehand as viewed SLICE...

SLICE

FH Slice Wide CourtLevel Rear- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

of course one cannot complete a study of the mcenroe forehand without mentioning the slice. we have talked about the disappearance of the slice forehand and it could very well of gone extinct when johnny said good bye. johnny bye bye for all of you springsteen fans. take a look at this little defensive gem because he may play this slice in a variety of ways ranging from purely defensive purposes to subtle attack. just before impact this shot from behind the baseline has all of the appearances of a volley like stroke. the racquet head is even higher than the level of his hand. this particular shot hit off a very aggressive ball from his opponent has the appearance of a safe play into the middle of the court which will leave mcenroe with only option on the next ball...to guess where his opponent will be trying to finish the point. if he guesses right my money is on his trying to further neutralize things or to try to his some kind of brilliant winner. if he guesses wrong he will only be hoping for an uncharacteristic miss from his opponent. you cannot rule out the miss either because keep in mind that mcenroe has been jerking his opponent all over the court for the duration of the match and nothing seems to be a given...even the sitters take on the sense of an adventure. the unpredictability of the mcenroe game takes its toll on you as an opponent...that is without even factoring in the mental gymnastics.

[don_budge]

The John McEnroe forehand as viewed SHORT...

SHORT

FH Short Front- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

one of the most interesting features of the continental forehand is the variety of shots that can be played inside the baseline...as in approaching the net. here mcenroe is moving slightly to his right electing to play on the forehand side and in a semi open stance he hits his trademark low slightly flatter forehand to his opponents forehand. the continental forehand has the distinction of landing the player with the weight moving forwards and with less falling over to the opposite side. by directing the weight more forwards for playing approach shots the natural inclination will be to move towards the net.

FH Short Front1- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

here from virtually the same position in the court mcenroe elects to close his stance to a semi closed and now he sends a dart to the opponents backhand side. his hooking left handed spin will have the additional effect of keeping the ball moving away from his opponent as well. these two forehands are also an excellent example of the element of disguise and control built into this shot. on the first short forehand it appears to me that the normal approach from an open stance would be cross court and not the inside out that he plays. in this second example the reverse is true...it appears that his natural inclination from this setup would be to play reverse cross court but instead he has tucked it neatly into the opponents backhand side where no doubt they will be digging it out of the pavement and hitting up to the catlike mcenroe ready to pounce at the net.

[don_budge]

The John McEnroe forehand as viewed INSIDE OUT...

INSIDE OUT

FH InsideOut CourtLevel Front- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

one of the big advantages of the mcenroe continental forehand is his ability to deceive and hold onto to his intentions until the very last moment. here it appears that he has set himself up on the backside of his court in a closed stance and he is going to drive into his opponents backhand court but instead he has turned around and hit something that looks like it is going to be deep into his opponents forehand corner. no doubt he is already thinking about all of the likely responses and deciding on his next move. mcenroe plays a lot of chess on tennis court as he always seems to be one step ahead of his opponent...tactically speaking.

FH InsideOut CourtLevel Rear- https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

just to the right of center mcenroe is set in an open stance and once again it appears that he may be leaning on hitting a cross court shot but instead he elects to go down the line with a low bullet. his opponent was clearly unsure as to what side to commit to and now he will be chasing and hitting up to an approaching mcenroe as he has sensed that he has his opponent in all kinds of trouble and is sneaking into the net to seal the deal.

[stotty]

McEnroe analysis

This is great stuff, don_budge. It's like a mini body of work.

The most striking thing about the clips, along with your analysis, is that how similar the stroke looks on all the shots. The only downside is there are no clips of Mac in his youth, using a wooden racket.

All the forehands are stroked, caressed, guided. As always with a lot players from that generation, the non-hitting arm stretch is less pronounced, quite limp at times. The follow through is also minimal in many of the clips, and he seldom hurls himself at the ball to leave the left shoulder pointing at the opposing court after the strike...something nearly all players do today.

The most impressive thing about Mac in the clips is the time and balance he seems to have.