My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[don_budge]

Speaking of Attitude...

No, the bad boy defied conventional thinking once again.

Attitude can lead to more brain in one's hand.

ATTITUDE

"The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company...a church...a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past...we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you...we are in charge of our attitudes." - Charles Swindoll.

"There will always be people that will be there to tell you why something will not work. I don't really need them...I know the score. It is the rare bird that will persist...alone and independent of the rest. Seeking a brighter tomorrow. A new horizon with each and every dawning day.

People will always ask you...is the bottle half full or is the bottle half empty? As if by this simple question that they will get you to commit yourself to being an optimist or a pessimist. Me...I choose to be a realist. The bottle is of course half full and half empty. The way is forwards...with an eye in the rearview...keeping a lookout for the authorities." - don_budge

[bottle]

Another Down and Up

Nabrug would have a complete fit if he still were around in this forum because of my adopting as basics to try what he would think John McEnroe's inimitable mannerisms or "characteristics" but always with that word spelled wrong.

The latest comes from re-watching the video in # 65 .

I refer to the way that JM points across the front of his body at the side fence.

That hand too goes slightly down before it goes up-- much the easiest of alternatives.

[bottle]

Don't Keep Opposite Hand on Racket

No, the bad boy defied conventional thinking once again.

In fact, if, from cheated over position, one eases racket head down simultaneously with unit turn, one obtains an upgrade to one's continental game by immediately tuning into gravity.

But one cannot hit good forehands of any stripe without a big turn of the shoulders.

There are a number of ways and variations and combinations for producing full turn, but the one that John McEnroe uses, rather pure, is to point with opposite hand at side fence.

Let go of racket immediately and you buy time and feel for yourself.

We spent New Year's Eve with an advertising person (and her husband, designer of the Chrysler hood ornament). She told tales of working for Cadillac with John McEnroe and Dennis Connors, the sailing person, and said that both were extremely smart.

Correct. And being more haptic is attitude more than genius. People who always point to genius are being dismissive, I think, implying that great qualities have no relevance to themselves, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Attitude can lead to more brain in one's hand.

[bottle]

JM's Forehand Backswing

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

I just noticed how soon the hands separate. That means that JM, from his cheated over waiting position, is mostly using the famous pointing-at-the-side-fence maneuver we've heard a lot about to get his shoulders around.

Which could be a manner of speaking if the turning body is causing the arm to gradually point at the side fence.

Most players who are still turning their shoulders during the point at side fence have taken shoulders around at least partially first with the opposite hand.

Even McEnroe might start his unit turn with opposite hand part of the deal but almost immediately he drops the racket, it seems. More fun to try than talk about.

[bottle]

I'll first posit what I just wrote and then try to answer 10splayer. The two subjects have nothing to do with each other, I think.

I like the insight that arm shouldn't roll under at low point in this kind of forehand.

I see desired pitch as being established by how far the player takes back the backswing-- by depth of backswing, one might say-- after grazing it close to side of the body which creates a slight down and up arc.

I see desired pitch as then being maintained by the extent to which the forward swing is a "flat swing" in the sense that golfers use that term.

In the following video of super-bratty super-ease, the racket stays on edge to the ball and then turns over a bit.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/tp_player/john-mcenroe/

Was this roll because John M. was holding his handle very lightly and contact was on the lower half of the strings? Or because there always is a bit of roll right after delayed closing of the wrist-- if there is a propulsive closing of the wrist? Or because there often is roll at contact although there is no propulsive closing of the wrist?

Easy questions, hard answers at least for me.

Now, as to 10splayer: We go first to the non-italicized quote within a quote of me to examine it for snideness. Let it remain snide if it is snide, say I, and let's call it snide even if it isn't snide just for the fun of it since that's what people often like to do.

But I've got to save everything up to now because of technical problems with my mouse. It doesn't like to copy and paste any more. It was the 400-page book that did it. Anyone have a technical idea for bringing it back to life?

1) "First of all, I did not coin the term 'flip.'"
Right. John Yandell did. I thought it an improvement on "mondo" and still do.

2) "I wouldn't even bring it up...if not for your little comment...Which was a bit snide and inaccurate..." Okay: Here the snideness begins complete with its inaccuracy:

"You, Steve-- I assume it was you-- even took a poll on whether there was a flip in John McEnroe's forehand. And you won, 4-0 . One of the votes was mine, by the way."

Inaccuracy here: Steve won by 80-0 ? Lost by 80-0 ? The figures were fudged? John Escher never voted? I'm willing to entertain all these possibilities.

Sentences one and two of paragraph two of the snideness:

"But why was there the need for the poll? Because people seemed insecure and unsure..."

What people, Escher? All the people in the discussion, myself included. Some said flipless. Some said flip. What was a poor ordinary person like myself supposed to think? Had to make up my own mind, and I did.

Sentences three and four: "One of these people, though, might have been playing devil's advocate. You've smoked him out before."

Who, Escher, whom do you mean? Rip Stott, that smarmy Brit. Stotty himself, that's who!

3) Let's go now to 10splayer's first sentence of response to the whole post I wrote. "I can only assume this was for my benefit."

NOT!

4) Who suggested that arm doesn't roll under at low point in a John McEnroe continental forehand, from which I inferred that arm SHOULDN'T ROLL under at low point, since I think that John McEnroe is a very good tennis player?

It was 10splayer, I think, although I don't think ownership of any tennis idea should be assigned to anybody.

[tennis_chiro]

What kind of snap?

I hit 30 minutes worth of forehands at my club today. I use continental, always have. My wrist is relaxed and passive most of the time. If I want more than a modicum amount of topspin, however, I have to pump my wrist quite a lot. For a topspin lob I have to snap my wrist somewhat. The more topspin I need, the more pump is required. Snapping certainly isn't good...though it has good uses in the some situations.

Generally, I tend to stroke the ball and not hit it. Modern grips are far better. Kids can really spank the ball with semi-western grips. The modern forehand beats the classic forehand hands down...obliterates it. The modern forehand is an unbelievably bit of equipment in the right hands.

I understand don_budges experiment with the Mac forehand, though. I understand exactly where he's coming from.

I expect that when you snap your wrist for that topspin lob, you are actually moving it quickly by means of radial deviation, but you are not flexing your wrist. The racket face has to maintain its orientation to the ball in order to maintain contact as the ball rolls off the strings; otherwise you simply lose the ball.

At least that is my suposition.

don

[stotty]

I hit 30 minutes worth of forehands at my club today. I use continental, always have. My wrist is relaxed and passive most of the time. If I want more than a modicum amount of topspin, however, I have to pump my wrist quite a lot. For a topspin lob I have to snap my wrist somewhat. The more topspin I need, the more pump is required. Snapping certainly isn't good...though it has good uses in the some situations.

Generally, I tend to stroke the ball and not hit it. Modern grips are far better. Kids can really spank the ball with semi-western grips. The modern forehand beats the classic forehand hands down...obliterates it. The modern forehand is an unbelievably bit of equipment in the right hands.

I understand don_budges experiment with the Mac forehand, though. I understand exactly where he's coming from.

[10splayer]

Bottle,

First of all, i did not coin the term "flip". I only shared my thoughts on what it meant..OK? This is, after all a forum.

Secondly, I wouldn't even bring it up, (i have better things to do) if not for your little comment i highlighted in post 57. Which was, a bit snide and inaccurate in my opinion. You brought it up, not me. So if the thread is being sidetracked, well then.......

Anyway, If you'd like to discuss the substance of my post, than i would be more than happy to do that...thats how this thing works....

[bottle]

You beat me to the natural wrist uncock (in continental drives) which is based entirely on perfect set-up and delay. I've always heard that continental players use a little wrist. And that they are more talented. And I know they're pretty nifty. (I played one with about 800 trophies in his basement.)

Well, if they used wrist they almost surely cocked it first, probably while their hips were at work.

I agree with Steve that the present experiment isn't going to hurt anybody and would make them a lot more knowledgeable.

As for "flip," I think that term should be dictionary definition, as in a rose is a rose.

Now "mondo"-- that could be used in a more strictly defined, limited, denotive only and therefore more scientific, left brain way.

But I don't want to go back. One you go black you never go back.

P.S. I'm wondering if this discussion is maybe getting off track. The real provocation is the way John McEnroe cheats to backhand side, which is enabled by his weird forehand (far more gorgeous in my eyes than the huge Kid Gavilan mechanical loops of all the great players of the day).

When you play me you'll see my waiting position has racket pointed straight at the net sometimes and pointed straight at side fence sometimes. So you'll know immediately which mode I'll be in, but I don't care. Later down the road I might develop some switcheroos (when I'm 83).

[10splayer]

I didn't vote because the options were black and white...i.e. either he flips or he doesn't. For me he does but in a very minor way. You just have to look at the clips to see that any kind of flip from Mac is barely perceptible much of the time, which is why I started the thread Is McEnroe Flipless...to see what others thoughts...certainly led to quite a debate.

I agree with 10splayer that Mac's arm is set up at the end of the backswing and stays virtually set (fixed almost) right the way through much of the forward swing...which is yet another factor in Mac's distintive style...makes his arm looked fixed/locked as he swings. I certainly wouldn't call Mac's strokes pretty.

I do feel that if the wrist breaks back even a little then it offers something...some minor flip at least.

Interesting 10splayer's observation on Federer's dog pat technique at the bottom of the downswing. I always remember this article on Tennisplayer that dealt with extreme dog pat technique. I had a kid with a similar problem to Amber...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/articles/

Couple things if i may. There is always going to be a little "lay back" of the wrist (extension) as the racquet changes directions. (flip or non flip). In my mind, whether or not a player flips or doesn't flip (and to what degree) has to do with whether or not the arm rotates from backswing to forwards swing. Mc's doesn't at all. His swing most closely resembles a gate opening and closing.

Yeah, and Fed is an extreme example of a flip. To the naked eye, it would appear that the degree to which his arm changes (degree of rotation) in the transition, is substantial....

[stotty]

Not much flip if you ask me...

I didn't vote because the options were black and white...i.e. either he flips or he doesn't. For me he does but in a very minor way. You just have to look at the clips to see that any kind of flip from Mac is barely perceptible much of the time, which is why I started the thread Is McEnroe Flipless...to see what others thoughts...certainly led to quite a debate.

I agree with 10splayer that Mac's arm is set up at the end of the backswing and stays virtually set (fixed almost) right the way through much of the forward swing...which is yet another factor in Mac's distintive style...makes his arm looked fixed/locked as he swings. I certainly wouldn't call Mac's strokes pretty.

I do feel that if the wrist breaks back even a little then it offers something...some minor flip at least.

Interesting 10splayer's observation on Federer's dog pat technique at the bottom of the downswing. I always remember this article on Tennisplayer that dealt with extreme dog pat technique. I had a kid with a similar problem to Amber...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/articles/

[10splayer]

The first forehand clip you showed this time, Steve, does have arm straightening a little just before the wrist punch. So why not same thing on backhand? The backhands we're all looking at were filmed from behind or in front so we don't get many angles from which to see whether the premise is true.

But how often blind faith-- when it should and shouldn't-- happens! Usually, when it comes to something as subtle as wrist in a ground stroke one is better off just taking the plunge to go ahead and say (or do!) what one believes is happening.

You, Steve-- I assume it was you-- even took a poll on whether there was a flip in John McEnroe's forehand. And you won, 4-0 . One of the votes was mine, by the way.

But why was there the need for the poll? Because people seemed insecure and unsure. One of those people, though, might have been playing devil's advocate. You've smoked him out before.

I know I've said before that I was unsure about the ping-pong slam idea on the backhand side, wondered if maybe the martinet keeps his wrist supinated (curled sometime) as I see in one video of his lob.

I have a lot of questions in general about wrist in all the groundies that people discuss and then learn. Some really great tennis thinkers, e.g., talk about the wrist giving at contact, i.e., going backward to stay on the ball longer and to protect the arm the way soft strings also do.

And except for listening to myself talk to myself, I've never heard anybody, much less some seasoned teaching pro with the natural authority of dealing every day with all sorts of students, discuss ALL the wrist possibilities in the same take or paragraph. You could be the first, Steve!

Right now I'm thinking no wrist propulsion on western, semi-western, strong eastern, weak eastern, yes on John McEnroe's modified continental with big knuckle on pointy ridge. Am I right? If not, who is right?

On my Ziegenfuss I'm finally ready to abandon the left brain (over-organized)
scheme of arm first then body. I want a little loop and gradual straightening of arm (forward!) with wrist going backward all at the same time right to the end of the followthrough. That says wrist will hold the hand on ball for a micro-second longer.

The arm will be moving independently, just a bit, but the stroke will still be spring don't swing.

But that may be a weird and undesirable stroke for some.

To return to McEnroe: Hard to see the flip. Hard to see the arm straighten into the ball. Hard to see the wrist explosion. Is that right?

I can only assume this was for my benefit. I can assure you I am neither insecure on unsure of the subject matter. The flip in the McEnroe forehand? There isn't one, zero, zilch, nada......IF we can agree on the definition of the "flip"

In layman's terms, it is a rather radical change in the hitting arm structure from backswing to forward swing. A rotation/counter rotation move that balistically loads the shoulder/arm and typically induces a stretch reflex....It is a calculated/taught method, and it is used in teaching circles all over the
world. But I know that doesn't mean anything to you or DB.


Slow click on a Fed forehand and you will see a number of things that illustrate this point. As the hands break apart the hitting arm/hand start pronating, or rotatating internally. Take a look at the thumb and notice how it turns down throughout the backswing. At the bottom of the downswing (in the transition stage) teh face of teh racquet is completely closed. (that's saying something given his eastern grip) TTry and achieve this postion with said grip, and you will find how internally rotated the arm has to be.......This rotation in the backswing, FORCES a counter rotation in the transition/forward swing....This is the mythical flip....


Now, look at any McEnroe video from behind and you will see that the hitting arm structure is already set up at the end of the backswing. That is, the arm is already rotated externally, butt cap forward, etc. What's he going to flip? The answer is, nothing. His arm structure is already set up.

[don_budge]

The Dream needs a Guinea Pig...

The next step in my little dream or hallucination or whatever you wish to call it...is to find a suitable "Guinea Pig". The specimen that I would seek would ideally be a teaching professional, thoughtful and intelligent, a bit taller than average, possess a great service motion, use a one hand backhand, have a creative and innovative mind...and perhaps most importantly...have a nose for the net. This specimen should be a true student of the game. He should be old enough to have learned a bit about teaching but young enough to play a good competitive game. He should be the kind of kid that used to ride his bicycle to the court every single day...because he wanted to and nobody had to tell him to do it. I would hope that he would be fearless and in touch with his "inner warrior" and unafraid to challenge conventional wisdom. That would be the prototype that I would search for.

Does anyone know anyone that fits this description? I think that I do. He posts on this site occasionally. Can you spell Kyle LaCroix? Keep in mind...this is only a dream and I am not even suggesting, not even of thinking...just forget that I mentioned it.

[don_budge]

Tennis is not a Rocket Science...it is more of a metaphysical play on words...

...to describe an artistic form of exercise.

This is an interesting discussion. I can't tell you how jealous I am of d_b's physical ability to still go out and test his hypotheses on the court. Got to be exciting.

But, please, don't start thinking you are going to snap your wrist into the hiting zone. I don't care if you use a continental, Eastern or full Western grip; good players are not snapping the wrist into the contact zone. Perhaps I am reading this thread incorrectly, but you are at least treading awfully close to advocating something that is simply impossible.

don

Thanks for your comments and for reading this thesis on the John McEnroe Groundstroke game. Ok...it's not technically a thesis...what it is, is only my thoughts on the John McEnroe Forehand and Backhand. Not exactly rocket science and I haven't actually spotted any numbers to corroborate my thoughts...nor do I intend to. By the way...I used to be an old auto industry quality control middle management guy and the only thing that I will say about your numbers is that they are "fudged"...at best.

But this has been an extraordinarily exciting process for me...much as all of my experience has been here on the forum. My education here on the forum has been very fulfilling in the sense that I have had the opportunity to study as only a good tennis_student would under the tutelage of guys like yourself and all of the other contributors to this cyberspace including John and his writers. This study of McEnroe and his continental strokes has been one of the most enlightening experiences of my tennis life...my tennis experience. I feel like I have discovered the wheel...like quite a few of the modern day gurus like to claim to have done. But I certainly won't present myself as an originator and promise to keep my ego in check...everything that I write has been written before. I am sure. The Beatles, Ferdinand Celine or Bill Tilden. I borrow. I steal. I freely admit it. I only connect the dots...the three little dots.

The one most exciting aspect of this exercise for me has been one of discovery...and it lies in the realm of teaching. Both of my parents were teachers and they were very critical of the teaching profession and I guess that I am too. But I have found that I have the capacity to teach myself. In one month I went from playing the modern game of tennis with a classic background to playing a full blown continental gripped tennis game with some very exciting and very enlightening results. In this regard I have succeeded in surpassing my own expectations of myself. That's a good trick, I think. I am only documenting my process from the beginning to the end in this matter. I just wish that I was there with you in sunny California at your club where we could actually sit down and I could share with you what I have learned first hand. But for now...this will have to do.

With regards to your comments, I have just a couple of points and these points are not in my defense or in defense of anything that you or anyone else may perceive that I am "advocating". This is my first point...I am not advocating anything at all. I am merely trying to document my live experience of researching the continental base gripped tennis game. If I am not purely objective in my writing and appear to be excited with the results that is because I am. The only thing that I am possibly advocating is that tennis professionals, tennis teachers, tennis coaches and tennis_students continue to explore and learn more about the game of tennis...particularly what I like to refer to as classic tennis. The well is deep. I want teachers and students to have more and more respect for the game and the knowledge that is available to them. That is what I am advocating. I am advocating freedom of speech...and freedom of thought. Plus the duty to not only profess to be a student of the game but to actually be a student of the game.

The only other point that I wish to make with regard to your comments is regarding the word or the idea that the wrist is snapping in any way shape or form. I did a search on my thread and used the words snap and snapping in my search and it came down to your comments where you had used that word 6 times. I am certainly not advocating snapping the wrist at anything...and particularly not a forehand. I never once used the word snap or snapping. I am a fundamentalist when it comes to teaching tennis...and golf. That much speaks for itself. I have always thought of the wrist as a hinge...the most important joint of the human body when it comes to tennis players or golfers.

This is only my dream... and my hallucination. That is all that it is. It is just a little "Weird Scene Inside the Gold Mine" of my imagination. Tennis is sort of a weird science...isn't it? Just ask Brian Gordon...or John McEnroe. Just compare their answers. Go ask Alice for all that matters. When she's ten feet tall. Ask the stars. The point is that it doesn't matter much who you ask...everyone has their own ideas. These are my thoughts...for what they are worth. If someone is offended or does not believe in what I am writing about, that is their problem and not mine...they will have to find their own way home at night and I am sure they will. My hope is that I am sharing something with all of the teachers and students that frequent this quaint little space that will give them some food for thought. That's all. I only want to make people think and to make good, sound decisions. On the tennis court and in life.

Besides it is only my therapy. It takes my mind off of my troubles. Let's face it, we all have our troubles or else we wouldn't be alive. Life is no bed of roses and guess what...tennis isn't either. We are all a mixed bag in one way or another...aren't we? Otherwise it's easy to sit around and feel sorry for myself. But this keeps me busy. Out of trouble. Who knows...with all of the weird energy I might find myself with the urge to go out and knock off a party store late at night. Just kidding...they don't really have party stores here in Sweden.

I bring my racquet home at night...just to fondle it, to feel it, the comfort of the continental grip and what it does for my hand, my wrist and my entire being. It gives me hope somehow...of a brighter tomorrow. The hope that I can pass it along...pass it forwards so to speak. On top of that...I feel that I am really on to something of great interest in the Kingdom of Tennis. Something from the past and how it possibly relates to the present and quite possibly even the future. I only want to share...that is the truth. I am not interested in money, in fame...or in pretty intelligent women. Ok...two out of three.

[bottle]

As usual, I like tennis_chiro's post very much. And see it as relating directly to the set of fallback ground strokes I'm marshaling for my six to eight weeks return to tennis from calf strain.

At the same time however I'm a romantic, which means that I'll always organize on some peak experience and retain a place in my life for such sheer craziness as writing non-formulaic "serious" American fiction in 2013 .

The peak experience: The only formal, professional golf lesson in my life shortly after which I almost won a very populous long-drive contest and would have won it if my father hadn't been coming along for his second try.

Despite there being countless golf lifers milling about, I hit the ball well-- never better before or since-- and it was all about a Ben Hogan like forward pivot of the hips while holding everything else back and then just uncorking with all the other elements common to any sport's swing.

The reason I'm not more scared of tennis_chiro's impeccable math is that I have no idea whether the delayed uncocking occurred right on the ball or before some kind of blending into the gentle arc of overall swing.

Perhaps this uncertainty is insufficient foundation for a radically new tennis game at the age of seventy-three.

In any case, we all need the sobriety as well as inspiration that only great teachers can provide.